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 Somali pirates: the rest of the story
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2009 :  02:48:06  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The final outcome to the recent pirate hijacking is most satisfactory. Piracy on the high seas, and elsewhere, should be responded to swiftly and with all force necessary.

That said, an examination of the overall sitution shows that we, the industrialized nations, brought it upon ourselves through the usual process': greed, stupidity, and a heartless lethargy toward Somalia.

In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since – and the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.

Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."

At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."


This won't end with battles fought at sea, but with reform ashore, both there and here, and in Europe. The question is: when are we gonna start?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2009 :  09:25:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fuck; that's bad. Dumping nuclear wastes is pretty evil shit.

Do we have any evidence of this really happening? It's a pretty big claim and it's first time I hear about it.

On the other hand, I can see a couple of problems with this story:
-Europe has many nuclear power-plants, most of them in France. France also has its nuclear waste re-treatment facility at La Hague, so it 's not like they'd have no other choice.
-Power plants in Europe are public, not private. It's not like anybody's money is on the line in taking shortcuts, he risks of legal actions, on the other hand, are the same.
-How do you load nuclear waste (from a public) power-plant, get them to travel all the way to a port and load them into ship, without authorities getting wiser?


It all seems difficult to believe, quite frankly.
-Why dumping it on the Somalian cost. It would be just as fast and much more discreet and less harmful to ship them to the middle of the Atlantic and dump the shit there.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2009 :  10:47:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a little more on it:


A United Nations' report released this week says nuclear and hazardous wastes dumped on Somalia's shores had been scattered by the recent Asian tsunami and are now infecting Somalis in coastal areas.

A spokesman for the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), Nick Nuttall, told VOA that for the past 15 years or so, European companies and others have used Somalia as a dumping ground for a wide array of nuclear and hazardous wastes.

"There's uranium radioactive waste, there's leads, there's heavy metals like cadmium and mercury, there's industrial wastes, and there's hospital wastes, chemical wastes, you name it,” he said. “It's not rocket science to know why they're doing it because of the instability there."
The pirates are not the only ones who should be taken out and shot. But unfortunately, they will be.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2009 :  13:31:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's downright evil...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  01:55:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The toxic dumping (chemicals and nuclear waste) are detailed in the UN report linked to by the article referenced by Filthy in his OP. International fishermen are also poaching about $300 million worth of fish from Somali waters each year.

Plenty of blame to go around for Somalia's woes. Nature, first: An El Nino condition has dried up the whole Horn of Africa. The Indonesian tsunami destroyed coastal villages and salted up wells. Man-made contributions to the disaster start with the stateless condition of Somalia, including civil wars, warlords -- and the Somali pirates themselves. According to Wiki, in the semi-independent northern area of Puntland alone, "The pirates actually have an income of $30m per year, $10m greater than that of Puntland as a whole."

The international mafias which have despoiled Somalia should be brought to justice.

I know of no unoccupied country that has other nations to police its lands and seas. Until Somalia, or nations broken off from it, are able to unify and enforce their own legitimate national rights, no hope is coming. That means pirates, warlords, and bandits must be suppressed if there is ever to be progress there.

As for the pirates, the international response of paying tribute has only made them richer and more aggressive. That must stop. But it probably won't stop until a punitive invasion stops it, if history is a guide. The young United States and France put down the Barbary Pirates after seagoing nations had encouraged them thorough tribute for many years. The slogan in America had been, "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute." Paying ransoms for captured ships and mariners works in the short term, but inevitably worsens piracy by rewarding the pirates.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/14/2009 02:04:41
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  08:22:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Between Clinton's bad experience with Somalia and Bush wonderful job in the Middle East, I don't think that Obama is going to risk starting a military operation any time soon.

Which is, as a matter of fact, too bad. A serie of short very limited raids could do wonders for the situation. And such raids are very unlikely to go bad, and such a success might boost Obama macho cred.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  09:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Between Clinton's bad experience with Somalia and Bush wonderful job in the Middle East, I don't think that Obama is going to risk starting a military operation any time soon.

Which is, as a matter of fact, too bad. A serie of short very limited raids could do wonders for the situation. And such raids are very unlikely to go bad, and such a success might boost Obama macho cred.

Not unless UN and the security council says "go".

Obama cannot afford to make the same mistake as Bush did: Deploying armed forces in comabt without an ok from UN. It won't matter if the target are pirates. I seriously doubt it will matter if the action is a success.
Pax Americana is what the rest of the world is afraid of. If Obama goes in without the world community support, he will become the symbol of broken trust: a new George Bush, McSame but with different name who does whatever the hell he pleases. And the world will hate America for it.

I hope UN can get its shit together soon and pass a resolusion for a more active pose against the pirates. Before Obama does anything rash.


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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  10:54:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree on general terms. But I was thinking about something very limited; a few air strikes and maybe a handful of commando raids.

Sure, securing the UN would be nice and the right thing to do. But you could solve or improve greatly the problem literally overnight and walk away before anybody even realize what went on.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  11:04:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ultimatly, the solution must be political. Until Somolia has a stable government, this sort of thing, in one form or another, will continue ad infinitum.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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WarfRat
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  16:12:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send WarfRat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"That said, an examination of the overall sitution shows that we, the industrialized nations, brought it upon ourselves through the usual process': greed, stupidity, and a heartless lethargy toward Somalia."


Are you stating that Somali Piracy is payback the issues raised in this article?

"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them."
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2009 :  18:06:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by WarfRat

"That said, an examination of the overall sitution shows that we, the industrialized nations, brought it upon ourselves through the usual process': greed, stupidity, and a heartless lethargy toward Somalia."


Are you stating that Somali Piracy is payback the issues raised in this article?
Certainly not. Somali piracy was guys trying to make a living and found it highly profitable. Anything highly profitable attracts the professional criminals and thus, we have what exists there today: a few making a good living, a few getting very rich, and the country benefiting not at all. And yet more on the populace signing on in the hopes that they too, will get rich. They don't read history over there (nor here, comes to that). Sooner or later, probably sooner, the gunboats will show up with a defined mission and the air strikes will begin. And Somalis, already reduced to an armpit, will be further devastated.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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WarfRat
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  05:31:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send WarfRat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah Ok,
So Somali Piracy is not payback for the European dumping but rather he West is responsible for the piracy. Does that mean that the pirates have no culpability in this.


"Somali piracy was guys trying to make a living and found it highly profitable. Anything highly profitable attracts the professional criminals"

So there are good pirates (guys trying to make a living) and bad pirates (professional criminals). Did we kill the good ones or bad ones? How does whether they read history or not effect the populace wanting in on the action?

But back to the original statement you made.
"That said, an examination of the overall sitution shows that we, the industrialized nations, brought it upon ourselves through the usual process': greed, stupidity, and a heartless lethargy toward Somalia."

To quote Faith No More, What is it? The It we brought on ourselves. That is the point of the arguement I want you to define.

"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them."
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  06:06:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send River Otter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why are these people on the ships not armed?

How are the pirates taking over these ships?

I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero

Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  06:43:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by River Otter

Why are these people on the ships not armed?
A report on NPR a few days ago claimed that according to international law, if you show up at a port armed, whoever runs the port can turn you away. So, if you want to deliver the goods you're shipping, don't have weapons aboard.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  06:59:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send River Otter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A report on NPR a few days ago claimed that according to international law, if you show up at a port armed, whoever runs the port can turn you away. So, if you want to deliver the goods you're shipping, don't have weapons aboard
.

Dave, thanks for answering my question. Now I understand why this piracy is continuing to happen.

It seems to me, the ships should be allowed to arm themselves, due to the current situation. People aren't as likely to rob you if they suspect you might cap them.

I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero

Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations.
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WarfRat
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  08:06:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send WarfRat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another about arming the ships is insurance. If a death occurrs with an armed crew, the shipping line may be held responsible for wrongful death. They could lose millions in addition to valued crew member. Some bean counter made the decision.

It's all about risk managment. Do you have the freighers armed, risk a firefight, have your crew killed, and get sued or just pay a "tax".

Not to mention the escalation with the Pirates.

"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them."
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