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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2009 : 14:04:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Edited to add: Even if you believe she was being dumb or intentionally offensive, why do you think anyone should be treated this way? |
She made herself a public figure, and then proceeded to screw it up. If you choose to step in front of a microphone, you'd better have your crap together. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 15:33:43 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
Second, pro same sex marriage people should respect my religion enough to not go further and say that any church no matter what their belief system has to perform same sex marriages. Most Christians see a slippery slope and are concerned that eventually this could be the outcome of legalizing same sex marriage.
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The only people I have EVER heard insist that a particular church should be required to perform same sex marriages are members of that church.
In fact, the church in question (US Anglican/Episcopal) recently split over some of these matters, gay marriage being just one of the issues of contention.
The idea that any church would be forced, by the government, to perform same sex marriages (or any marriage they didn't want to, for that matter) is absurd. Its just another blatant lie created by your "conservative" masters to panic you into being against same sex marriage. Good to see that you, at least, haven't bought into it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:25:16 [Permalink]
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Actually, the whole thing about "forcing" churches to perform same-sex marriages is barred under the Constitution's First Amendment. The Supreme Court has held itself incompent to judge ecclesiastical matters. I will defend to the death your right and your church's right to say it.
Your moral position is your own. I respect that is your held belief and the belief of your sub-sect of Christianity.
Since you are not inflicting that moral code upon the denizens of the country through law, I have no problem with it.
It's only when those individuals of faith step up and say the Constitution does not apply to those people of whom they disapprove, when I have a problem with them.
Constitutional Rights don't end because you think the speaker sucks.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:29:28 [Permalink]
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| Second, pro same sex marriage people should respect my religion enough to not go further and say that any church no matter what their belief system has to perform same sex marriages. Most Christians see a slippery slope and are concerned that eventually this could be the outcome of legalizing same sex marriage. |
I think this worry is absurd, and you should cast it aside. It is a false slippery slope argument put forth by people who know better.
Things just don't progress that way.
When the excellently-named law case Loving v. Virginia allowed people of different races to marry (based upon the 14h Amendment), no churches were forced by the government to marry blacks and whites. (On the other hand, many which hadn't before began doing so on their own.)
We don't need to contemplate the horror of Fred Phelps being forced to open Westboro Baptist Church for gay (or human-canine) weddings.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/07/2009 20:08:42 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 04:48:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Same sex marriage does not infringe on my rights or liberty as a Christian whatsoever. Some think that it has some affect on marriage between a man and a woman or endangers Christian marriage in some way. What is endangering Christian marriage is Christian divorce not same sex marriage.
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That is about as clear as it gets. I simply could not fathom how any same sex marriage would have any impact on my marriage of 28 years.
I was watching that Countdown segment with Michael Musto. Normally, I find him funny. This time it just got old so I voted with the remote.
edited: typo |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 05/08/2009 04:48:58 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 05:25:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
We don't need to contemplate the horror of Fred Phelps being forced to open Westboro Baptist Church for gay (or human-canine) weddings.
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But wouldn't that be something? 
Seeing Fred Phelps standing there at the altar in front of two long-haired men muscles bulging in the black leather, having a coronary...
Ah, well.
It's never going to happen.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 07:22:23 [Permalink]
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| Ok, I will curb my paranoia on churches being forced to perform same sex marriage. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 07:53:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
Edited to add: Even if you believe she was being dumb or intentionally offensive, why do you think anyone should be treated this way? |
She made herself a public figure, and then proceeded to screw it up. If you choose to step in front of a microphone, you'd better have your crap together.
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So people deserve to be treated like that. Ok. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 07:56:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Given that this country has freedom of speech and the cable news is governed by capitalistic interests, not what is quality news, I'm afraid this sort of crap is going to happen. But I agree that it is distasteful and that they are ripping on her for having fake boobs and being a dumb blond because she has a stance on an issue that they found offensive. That is akin to attacking someone's baldness or age or for being fat because we don't like their opinion. It is childish and I agree that it doesn't belong on a supposedly "serious" news station and program. I just don't know what to do about it other than complain about and make fun of bad media coverage as the "Daily Show" beautifully does. |
I agree they can say these things I just don't think it is necessary.
| Bill O'Reilly has been saying incredibly offensive things about and to all sorts of people just because he disagreed with them for years. All kinds of crap has been said in various media outlets about homosexuals, such as the constant cracks made against openly gay senator Barney Frank. People can react to garbage media with criticism, parody, or just rolling their eyes. While I share your wish for only serious media commentary, I also have to say yay to free speech even if it includes speech I find offensive. It a bummer that what passes for television "news" is much more cheap entertainment than it is serious information, but again, not sure what we can do about it legally which wouldn't involve restricting free speech. |
Bill O'Reilly attacks peoples positions not cheap attacks on their looks.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 07:58:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
But wouldn't that be something?
Seeing Fred Phelps standing there at the altar in front of two long-haired men muscles bulging in the black leather, having a coronary... |
No kidding! I'd make a donation to WBC to sit in a pew and watch that!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 11:56:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by marfknox
Given that this country has freedom of speech and the cable news is governed by capitalistic interests, not what is quality news, I'm afraid this sort of crap is going to happen. But I agree that it is distasteful and that they are ripping on her for having fake boobs and being a dumb blond because she has a stance on an issue that they found offensive. That is akin to attacking someone's baldness or age or for being fat because we don't like their opinion. It is childish and I agree that it doesn't belong on a supposedly "serious" news station and program. I just don't know what to do about it other than complain about and make fun of bad media coverage as the "Daily Show" beautifully does. |
I agree they can say these things I just don't think it is necessary.
| Bill O'Reilly has been saying incredibly offensive things about and to all sorts of people just because he disagreed with them for years. All kinds of crap has been said in various media outlets about homosexuals, such as the constant cracks made against openly gay senator Barney Frank. People can react to garbage media with criticism, parody, or just rolling their eyes. While I share your wish for only serious media commentary, I also have to say yay to free speech even if it includes speech I find offensive. It a bummer that what passes for television "news" is much more cheap entertainment than it is serious information, but again, not sure what we can do about it legally which wouldn't involve restricting free speech. |
Bill O'Reilly attacks peoples positions not cheap attacks on their looks. |
Bill O'Reilly lies against other people's position.
And there's a difference between a comedy show and a (pretend) new show.
In the first case, it is ok to make fun on someone's look, because fun is the final goal of the of the shows. In the later, it is irrelevant, as it has little bearing on the actual arguments and position being debated. And representing the reality is (supposed to be) the final goal of a news show.
But, of course, I am better informed by reading a couple of years old horoscope than by listening to O'Reilly... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 12:40:51 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | So people deserve to be treated like that. Ok. |
and | I agree they can say these things I just don't think it is necessary. |
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you want us to be enraged that someone in the media made a cheap attack on Miss California's looks? Cheap, mean attacks are made against all sorts of people all the time in a place with freedom of speech. Dave's point is that if one is a public figure, the attacks will happen publicly, so those individuals should brace themselves for it just as politicians should brace themselves being the constant butt of political cartoon jokes and talk radio hosts. Whether someone "deserves" such treatment or not is irrelevant because that is a totally subjective question. Who "deserves" this or that is really in the eye of the beholder, and whether something is "necessary" or not in this context cannot be absolutely known, only guessed.
In short, I think you are making too much of a non-issue. Miss America is a stupid contest that has been losing popularity for years. The judge who called Miss California a "bitch" on his vlog comes off as just as much of a tool as her by the way he made his criticisms. And the media pundits who made cheap cracks on her come off as childish jerks. Anyone with any intellectual sophistication and/or sensitivity will see that, and so there is no need to punish any of these people. They are their own three ring circus. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 13:16:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
Edited to add: Even if you believe she was being dumb or intentionally offensive, why do you think anyone should be treated this way? |
She made herself a public figure, and then proceeded to screw it up. If you choose to step in front of a microphone, you'd better have your crap together.
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So people deserve to be treated like that. Ok.
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Not people as in "just regular people". But she stepped into the spotlight to become a public figure through her participation in that pagent. When she volunteers her opinion as a public figure, she has to be prepared to have other people express their opinion of her.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 14:29:45 [Permalink]
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Mab, what's the same-sex marriage situation now in Sweden and Europe generally?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 17:49:18 [Permalink]
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Robb:
Bill O'Reilly attacks peoples positions not cheap attacks on their looks. |
So, there is a cheap shot that Bill O' Reilly doesn't use?
Fascinating... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
