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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2009 : 18:06:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I think we have established that using the bible as justification for a "moral" objection to gay marriage, when one does not follow most of the other rules in the same book, shows gross hypocrisy. Sorry, Robb, you'll have to come up with another reason to justify your homophobic views. I've yet to hear from a single gay hating christian who claims the bible backs them up that they also follow all the other laws given by their god. Why is that?
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All christians ar hypocrytes. Lets be fair and say everybody is a hypocryte. Does anybody live up to their beliefs, no matter what they are? I think not. I will always say telling a lie is a sin, but I have lied since I became a christian. That does not mean that I do not believe what I preach so to speak, only I have not lived up to it all the time.
As far as gay hating. the Bible is clear that Christians must love everybody. In 1 john, it teaches that you cannot be a Christian and be incapable of not loving somebody. If you claim to be a christian and are incapable of loving somebody, you are not a christian,period. You equate not approving of a life descision with hate. That is a big assumption so you can justify calling christians "gay hating bigots".
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Obviously, Robb, you're not understanding me. You claimed a biblical basis for not approving of gay marriage. What I said was that in my experience, all christians who use the bible as the basis for their opposition to granting a basic right to a class of people simply because of who they are, yet fail to adhere to the vast majority of other rules in the same book, are acting hypocritically. As Kil so aptly put it, there are christians who do not oppose gay marriage, so they are, in this matter at least, not being hypocritical. Therefore I did not claim that "(a)ll christians ar hypocrytes".
And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted.
This reminds me of some jamoke I heard on the radio the other day. He said he knew gay people and worked with gays, and he didn't have any problem with them being gay, but he objected to them practicing homosexual behaviors! So it's alright that they are gay as long as they don't, you know, do gay stuff. How can any rational person take this line of argument seriously? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 18:54:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
This reminds me of some jamoke I heard on the radio the other day. He said he knew gay people and worked with gays, and he didn't have any problem with them being gay, but he objected to them practicing homosexual behaviors! So it's alright that they are gay as long as they don't, you know, do gay stuff. How can any rational person take this line of argument seriously? |
Everyone should take introductary clauses that are similar to "I've got friends who are [insert group identity here]..." as being a hint that whatever follows will be a bigoted statement against that same group. Doesn't always happen that way, but it's common enough that a general parsing rule can be defined. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 19:09:13 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | All christians ar hypocrytes. Lets be fair and say everybody is a hypocryte. Does anybody live up to their beliefs, no matter what they are? I think not. I will always say telling a lie is a sin, but I have lied since I became a christian. That does not mean that I do not believe what I preach so to speak, only I have not lived up to it all the time. |
I don't think anyone was saying that because you do things which you consider sinful you should not think homosexuality is wrong. They were asking you if you agreed with other laws from the Bible as good guidelines for a moral code. So you may not stone people for being witches, but are you saying that you think it is sinful every time you decide not to stone a witch? Basically, people here are questioning whether you really use the whole Bible, interpreted literally, for your moral code, or do you just pick and choose.
You also never responded to my challenges to homosexuality being interpreted as sinful in the Bible. I really don't think the Bible condemns homosexuality for its own sake, but only condemns it in the context of particular practices (pagan rituals and prostitution.) Do you have no response to this challenge?
| As far as gay hating. the Bible is clear that Christians must love everybody. In 1 john, it teaches that you cannot be a Christian and be incapable of not loving somebody. If you claim to be a christian and are incapable of loving somebody, you are not a christian,period. You equate not approving of a life descision with hate. That is a big assumption so you can justify calling christians "gay hating bigots". |
I agree with you here, Robb. Bigotry is advocating discrimination, which you are not. You have simply expressed your personal view that homosexual acts are sinful according to your religion. Also, you have expressed no hatred for gay people.
R. Wreck wrote: | And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted. |
Except that Robb started this whole threat by saying that he does NOT advocate legal discrimination against homosexuals. So why are you accusing him of hating gay people?
I think it is wrong to recklessly gamble with non-expendable income, but I don't hate gambling addicts. I disagree with Robb about homosexuality being wrong, but I fail to see how he has shown to have hatred for anyone. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/17/2009 19:10:49 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 19:23:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by R.Wreck
This reminds me of some jamoke I heard on the radio the other day. He said he knew gay people and worked with gays, and he didn't have any problem with them being gay, but he objected to them practicing homosexual behaviors! So it's alright that they are gay as long as they don't, you know, do gay stuff. How can any rational person take this line of argument seriously? |
Everyone should take introductary clauses that are similar to "I've got friends who are [insert group identity here]..." as being a hint that whatever follows will be a bigoted statement against that same group. Doesn't always happen that way, but it's common enough that a general parsing rule can be defined.
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Ah, yes.
Game #122 on this excellent guide to invalid Fundie arguments.
http://www.ralliance.org/GamesFundiesPlay.html
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:07:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I think we have established that using the bible as justification for a "moral" objection to gay marriage, when one does not follow most of the other rules in the same book, shows gross hypocrisy. Sorry, Robb, you'll have to come up with another reason to justify your homophobic views. I've yet to hear from a single gay hating christian who claims the bible backs them up that they also follow all the other laws given by their god. Why is that?
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All christians ar hypocrytes. Lets be fair and say everybody is a hypocryte. Does anybody live up to their beliefs, no matter what they are? I think not. I will always say telling a lie is a sin, but I have lied since I became a christian. That does not mean that I do not believe what I preach so to speak, only I have not lived up to it all the time.
As far as gay hating. the Bible is clear that Christians must love everybody. In 1 john, it teaches that you cannot be a Christian and be incapable of not loving somebody. If you claim to be a christian and are incapable of loving somebody, you are not a christian,period. You equate not approving of a life descision with hate. That is a big assumption so you can justify calling christians "gay hating bigots".
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No, not all Christians are hypocrite.
But, as Marf. and other mentioned, the Bible is a self contradictory document written at different time, by different people, with different agenda.
The song of Solomon is a love, erotic poem.
Proverbs are concerned with the organization of a stable society, marriage was a useful institution for them.
Paul was convinced that he lived in the last decades of the world. For him, there was a real emergency to bring the message of Christ to as many people as possible before the rapture. Settling down, getting married or, if you already were married, staying with your wife rather than focussing on Evangelizing, was a waste of time and resources in is view.
Christians will then have to pick and chose which of the teachings of the Bible they want.
Most will go for the ones that support the lifestyle choice they already made, that's human.
Quite a few of them seem mostly concerned with readings that allow them to feel superior and insult other people. That's, indeed, is quite hypocrite.
There is a difference between not approving a life decision and refusing basic rights to a person and deciding that this person is no longer allowed to 'the pursuit of happiness'.
Like it or not, whatever the motivation of this particular behaviour, it is gay bashing and it is bigoted. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 16:44:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Passing laws based on their religion, and not because it serves us in any practical way, is a goal of many Christians.
From my point of view, denying a whole segment of the population equal rights under the law and supposedly loving them at the same time just doesn't compute. Maybe you all don't hate them, but if that's love, what else have you got? |
Christians believe in an afterlife, and that living such a lifestyle results in a bad afterlife. From their point of view, by denying the ability of homosexuals to marry, they are able to prevent some homosexuals from going to hell, meaning they "love" them and are attempting to help them in a practical way (e.g. homosexuals who repress it due to social pressures).
I think this is a more or less consistent position for Christians to say they love homosexuals. We certainly have objections on other grounds (opposition to inserting religion into lawmaking, etc.), but I do not see the position as self-contradictory. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 17:35:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Kil
Passing laws based on their religion, and not because it serves us in any practical way, is a goal of many Christians.
From my point of view, denying a whole segment of the population equal rights under the law and supposedly loving them at the same time just doesn't compute. Maybe you all don't hate them, but if that's love, what else have you got? |
Christians believe in an afterlife, and that living such a lifestyle results in a bad afterlife. From their point of view, by denying the ability of homosexuals to marry, they are able to prevent some homosexuals from going to hell, meaning they "love" them and are attempting to help them in a practical way (e.g. homosexuals who repress it due to social pressures).
I think this is a more or less consistent position for Christians to say they love homosexuals. We certainly have objections on other grounds (opposition to inserting religion into lawmaking, etc.), but I do not see the position as self-contradictory.
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Well, I did say "from my point of view". You know. Rational... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 12:45:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted. |
To deny them marriage under our laws is one thing. But, does it make sense that Christians believe the Bible to be true and just like all unrepentent sin, homosexuality will send you to hell as the Bible says. Christians that believe this actually care about the person and do not want them to go to hell. That is not bigotry or hateful but actualy loving. Now, I agree that not all so called Christians do this, some hate gays from their own bigotry. But as the Bible says, if you cannot love all people you are not a Christian. (1 John) |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 13:03:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
But, does it make sense that Christians believe the Bible to be true and just like all unrepentent sin, homosexuality will send you to hell as the Bible says. Christians that believe this actually care about the person and do not want them to go to hell. That is not bigotry or hateful but actualy loving. |
Which stands in opposition to love someone enough to allow them to choose for themselves. Free will and such.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 13:06:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted. |
To deny them marriage under our laws is one thing. But, does it make sense that Christians believe the Bible to be true and just like all unrepentent sin, homosexuality will send you to hell as the Bible says. Christians that believe this actually care about the person and do not want them to go to hell. That is not bigotry or hateful but actualy loving. Now, I agree that not all so called Christians do this, some hate gays from their own bigotry. But as the Bible says, if you cannot love all people you are not a Christian. (1 John)
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I take it you are actively campaigning to ban the sale of shellfish? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 13:16:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted. |
To deny them marriage under our laws is one thing. But, does it make sense that Christians believe the Bible to be true and just like all unrepentent sin, homosexuality will send you to hell as the Bible says. Christians that believe this actually care about the person and do not want them to go to hell. That is not bigotry or hateful but actualy loving. Now, I agree that not all so called Christians do this, some hate gays from their own bigotry. But as the Bible says, if you cannot love all people you are not a Christian. (1 John)
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I take it you are actively campaigning to ban the sale of shellfish?
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In all fairness, Robb is not actively campaigning to ban gay marriages. But of course, other Christians are and he is defending the apologetics behind their motives. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 16:02:26 [Permalink]
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True, I was not accusing Robb of anything.
But the point remains. Of all the many Abominations given in the Bible, why do Christians always focus on the one that do not concern them? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 18:39:34 [Permalink]
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| Robb, you still haven't directly addressed the problem of how you interpret the Bible and how there can be several different interpretations which could be considered equally legitimate given our limited knowledge. Since you are not actively campaigning against gay marriage, I won't ask if you are actively campaigning against eating shellfish. But do you consider it to be sinful to eat shellfish? That gets more to the point of what people see as hypocritical behavior of Christians - that you consider some Biblical commands as moral rules, and ignore others. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 18:41:40 [Permalink]
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Machi4velli wrote: | Christians believe in an afterlife, and that living such a lifestyle results in a bad afterlife. From their point of view, by denying the ability of homosexuals to marry, they are able to prevent some homosexuals from going to hell, meaning they "love" them and are attempting to help them in a practical way (e.g. homosexuals who repress it due to social pressures). |
Sure. But then those same people should be actively campaigning to make any sex outside of marriage, getting drunk, not honoring the Sabbath, and eating shellfish illegal. But they don't. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 05:49:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Sure. But then those same people should be actively campaigning to make any sex outside of marriage, getting drunk, not honoring the Sabbath, and eating shellfish illegal. But they don't.
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Jesus teachings and Paul's writings indicate that we need to have respect for the governments and laws that rule over Christians but they never used the law as a mechanism to change peoples behavior. They preached to crowds and talked to people one on one to change their hearts. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
