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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2009 :  12:21:33  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Evidently, Britain's chiropractors are coming under a most unwelcome, but long over due, spotlight.
Subject: FURTHER URGENT ACTION REQUIRED!

Dear Member

If you are reading this, we assume you have also read the urgent email we sent you last Friday. If you did not read it, READ IT VERY CAREFULLY NOW and - this is most important ACT ON IT. This is not scaremongering. We judge this to be a real threat to you and your practice.

Because of what we consider to be a witch hunt against chiropractors, we are now issuing the following advice:

The target of the campaigners is now any claims for treatment that cannot be substantiated with chiropractic research. The safest thing for everyone to do is as follows.

If you have a website, take it down NOW.

I found this at PZ's and agree with him; it is well past time that our home-grown quacks receive the same scrutiny.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2009 :  13:45:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great stuff!!!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2009 :  14:21:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's so fine to see quacks in full panic. I wonder, is this in response to actions taken by pro-scientific medicine people in reaction to Simon Singh's persecution via liable laws in Britain?

This reminds me of the panicked work that we noticed on Operation Rescue's Web site after the Tiller assassination.

I'm with Kil: May the terror among the quacks spread across the oceans.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Landrew
New Member

44 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  07:29:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Landrew a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

It's so fine to see quacks in full panic. I wonder, is this in response to actions taken by pro-scientific medicine people in reaction to Simon Singh's persecution via liable laws in Britain?

This reminds me of the panicked work that we noticed on Operation Rescue's Web site after the Tiller assassination.

I'm with Kil: May the terror among the quacks spread across the oceans.



Interesting premise. "They're all quacks because they're all quacks." I don't use chiropractors much, but I know a lot of firsthand anecdotes by people who claim to have been helped.

Freedom of choice is a key tenet of our civilization. We grant individuals the right to choose all sorts of destructive diversions, junk food, alcohol, tobacco etc... none of which purports to offer you much tangible benefit. Chiropractic does not claim to work miracles (some people do) but in most cases, it's the individual's own money being spent, on something they willingly choose to explore for it's potential benefits.

Witness the outcry whenever someone proposes outlawing some of the above-mentioned recreational psychotropic substances. For those who propose to control the way we think and choose; It seems to me their priorities are much askew.
Edited by - Landrew on 06/13/2009 07:33:12
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  07:59:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Landrew

Originally posted by HalfMooner

It's so fine to see quacks in full panic. I wonder, is this in response to actions taken by pro-scientific medicine people in reaction to Simon Singh's persecution via liable laws in Britain?

This reminds me of the panicked work that we noticed on Operation Rescue's Web site after the Tiller assassination.

I'm with Kil: May the terror among the quacks spread across the oceans.



Interesting premise. "They're all quacks because they're all quacks." I don't use chiropractors much, but I know a lot of firsthand anecdotes by people who claim to have been helped.

Freedom of choice is a key tenet of our civilization. We grant individuals the right to choose all sorts of destructive diversions, junk food, alcohol, tobacco etc... none of which purports to offer you much tangible benefit. Chiropractic does not claim to work miracles (some people do) but in most cases, it's the individual's own money being spent, on something they willingly choose to explore for it's potential benefits.

Witness the outcry whenever someone proposes outlawing some of the above-mentioned recreational psychotropic substances. For those who propose to control the way we think and choose; It seems to me their priorities are much askew.

What the chiropractors were asked to do is take out all claims on their sites that haven't been substantiated by any studies. Claims they use to bring people in, without any credible supporting evidence for their claims. In this country, that is the purview of the FTC. It is illegal to make false claims about a product or service, and chiropractic is a service. People can't make reasonable or responsible health choices if they are being lied to, and they can't be expected to be up on all of the science that suggest that the claims are false. It isn't that people being are being denied access to a Chiropractor that is at issue. They aren't being denied access. It's the selling of claims that lack any meaningful scientific support that is at issue.

Chiropractic, which is based on a dubious premise, is still legal. And yes, some people have benefited from aspects of chiorpracty, in much the same way that people have benefited from physical therapy.

It's the false or unsupported claims that is being declared as out of bounds. Or is it your view that consumers need no protection at all?

In that case, anything goes, and bring on the quacks.

I applaud Britain for taking steps to eliminate the false claims from chiropractic advertising.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  08:18:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Landrew

Interesting premise. "They're all quacks because they're all quacks." I don't use chiropractors much, but I know a lot of firsthand anecdotes by people who claim to have been helped.
Quacks are judged by their claims, not by the alleged results (especially anecdotal results). Chiropractic is based upon a ludicrous premise, and so is inherently quackish.
Freedom of choice...
Chiropractic hides behind a mantle of trust: the word "doctor." It is thus designed to eliminate people's freedom of choice through false advertising, since chiropractors generally do not have anywhere near the same training as the average MD. True freedom of choice only comes through being fully informed, and chiropractors attempt to circumvent that.
Chiropractic does not claim to work miracles (some people do)...
Since chiropractic is based upon a wholly implausible therapeutic mode, most chiropractic claims are miraculous.
...but in most cases, it's the individual's own money being spent, on something they willingly choose to explore for it's potential benefits.
And in most cases, the individuals are not being given all the data they need to make a fully informed decision.
For those who propose to control the way we think...
Oh, please, get off the cross.
...and choose; It seems to me their priorities are much askew.
Do you feel the same way about mandatory seatbelt or helmet laws?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  08:47:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just for fun, I found this:


Improper Claims on Chiropractic College Web Sites
by Steven Barret, M.D.

Two chiropractic college professors who surveyed North American chiropractic school Web sites in July 2001 have concluded that more than half of them make unsubstantiated claims for clinical theories or methods. In a strongly worded article they warned that "this behavior likely reflects what is taught in the schools" and that "chiropractors' quest for greater legitimacy and cultural authority is retarded by the tendency." The authors also concluded that "antiscientific attitudes are still encouraged within chiropractic education on this continent."[1] During the same year, the professors noted similar problems with brochures published by eight major state and national chiropractic organizations [2].

In March 2003, I revisited the school. sites and found that almost all of the criticized statements are still there. I also found a few that were not reported by the processors. Of the 18 sites I visited, 15 made unsubstantiated claims. The table below contains representative quotes and my reasons for objecting to them. Another school (New York Chiropractic College) linked to a series of American Chiropractic Association "Health Tips," one of which includes unsubstantiated claims that chiropractic care is effective against attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). [3]


What follows is a list of outrageous claims that students of Chiropractic are being told.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  13:14:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Landrew
We grant individuals the right to choose all sorts of destructive diversions, junk food, alcohol, tobacco etc... none of which purports to offer you much tangible benefit.
Yep, and that's the difference. Society must protect citizens' "freedom to choose" by allowing them to make informed choices. Liars who make false claims about their products or services cheat the market and impair individual freedom. No one is saying chiropractic should be banned, just that its proponents need to make it clear that it doesn't "offer you much tangible benefit." As you point out, there is still a market for such useless--but honestly advertised--products.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  13:17:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Just for fun, I found this:


Improper Claims on Chiropractic College Web Sites
by Steven Barret, M.D.

Two chiropractic college professors who surveyed North American chiropractic school Web sites in July 2001 have concluded that more than half of them make unsubstantiated claims for clinical theories or methods. In a strongly worded article they warned that "this behavior likely reflects what is taught in the schools" and that "chiropractors' quest for greater legitimacy and cultural authority is retarded by the tendency." The authors also concluded that "antiscientific attitudes are still encouraged within chiropractic education on this continent."[1] During the same year, the professors noted similar problems with brochures published by eight major state and national chiropractic organizations [2].

In March 2003, I revisited the school. sites and found that almost all of the criticized statements are still there. I also found a few that were not reported by the processors. Of the 18 sites I visited, 15 made unsubstantiated claims. The table below contains representative quotes and my reasons for objecting to them. Another school (New York Chiropractic College) linked to a series of American Chiropractic Association "Health Tips," one of which includes unsubstantiated claims that chiropractic care is effective against attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). [3]


What follows is a list of outrageous claims that students of Chiropractic are being told.
An interesting list, kil, but as you read through it, it begins to somewhat resemble a sort of carney's midway pitch -- "Step right up and try yer luck!" -- only using fancy words and phrases like "subluxations" and "enhances the body's own inborn healing ability." This is the sort of blather we've all heard from every homeopathic, hoo-hah outfit extant, and the sad part about it is that it works. People listen, and ever yearn for the silver bullet; the free lunch. There's nothing new about it, it has always been so and will never change, and thus, as we are ever loving nonexistent magic, chiropractors and other duck impersonators prosper.



Me, I blame it on evolution, as there is no evidence of some crazed deity or other giving us, bipeds, a quadruped's spine. It's a really piss-poor joke and has left us wide open for back trouble, and easy pickings for anyone who might help by lightening our pocketbooks.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- it's been a while since I've looked at this -- but wasn't the concept, the modern one anyway, invented by a green grocer?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  14:35:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- it's been a while since I've looked at this -- but wasn't the concept, the modern one anyway, invented by a green grocer?
D.D. Palmer was a grocery store owner, as well as a beekeeper and school teacher.

Damn Canadians.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  16:34:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by filthy

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- it's been a while since I've looked at this -- but wasn't the concept, the modern one anyway, invented by a green grocer?
D.D. Palmer was a grocery store owner, as well as a beekeeper and school teacher.

Damn Canadians.
I recall now -- too lazy to look it up myself, so thanks! Great qualifications for an orthopedic practitioner, eh?

But I wonder, was Palmer the first in history to come up with the idea? Somehow, I tend to doubt it...




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  20:55:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. A Google search of "evidence-based chiropractic" suggests that selling stuff (courses, practice management services) that you claim enhances the evidence-base of chiropractic practice is big business.

There are clinical trials reported in Pub Med of chiropractic vs. other approaches to care, for neck or back pain, showing some benefit for some patients from chiropractic care. But the assessment is via symptom report, and the treatments are obviously not blinded. ("Sham" treatment arms are now the standard in trials of acupuncture, and also of CPAP - which has been quite helpful in evaluating these modalities.)


I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  21:24:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There used to be a Quackwatch-associated mailing list that had, as a regular, a chiropractor who only did low-back-pain adjustments, and railed against all the quack chirorpactors out there (especially the ones who did neck adjustments, 'cause they're the most deadly).

"Sham" chiropractic would basically involve "adjusting" the "wrong" vertebrae, just like some cham acupuncture involves needles in the "wrong" spots. It only allows for single-blinding of the studies, of course, not double-blinding.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  23:13:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Landrew

Interesting premise. "They're all quacks because they're all quacks." I don't use chiropractors much, but I know a lot of firsthand anecdotes by people who claim to have been helped.
You misquoted me. You invented a quote from me as a strawman, then put quotion marks around it in an apparent attempt to make it appear real. After that opening blast of utter dishonesty out of the blue, I'm unsure I can communicate with you, but I'll try.

I did not address why chiropractors are quacks, simply what I think should be the fate of such quacks.
Freedom of choice is a key tenet of our civilization. We grant individuals the right to choose all sorts of destructive diversions, junk food, alcohol, tobacco etc... none of which purports to offer you much tangible benefit. Chiropractic does not claim to work miracles (some people do) but in most cases, it's the individual's own money being spent, on something they willingly choose to explore for it's potential benefits.
As Dave W. pointed out already, chiropractic makes magical claims from the get-go. Like Reiki or acupuncture, the very "theory" of the means of its supposed operation is based upon gobbledygook that is scientifically meaningless at best, scientifically disproven at worst. Even more importantly, science has no evidence that chiropractic works, but there is evidence that some of its common "adjustments" are actively dangerous.

People should not be able to put "Doctor" ahead of their names and make unvalidated healing claims. All such people are quacks. If they weren't, they would have either long ago abandoned their claims, or have proven the efficacy of chiropractic.
Witness the outcry whenever someone proposes outlawing some of the above-mentioned recreational psychotropic substances. For those who propose to control the way we think and choose; It seems to me their priorities are much askew.
Oh, good grief, talk about apples and oranges! I feel no need to argue that far of the track.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/14/2009 03:01:53
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