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Sfhts
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  14:11:54  Show Profile Send Sfhts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For too long people have stared at the skies and dreamt of an omnipotent being watching over them, guiding them while creating "miracles" to help them in their day to day life. Oh how wrong they were! They believed that this mighty being created Earth, and indeed life itself, they weren't wrong. Well, they weren't that far off the mark, put it that way.

So if God exists, but not in the traditional sense, how does that work? Well reader, God is an entity made up of millions, if not billions of 'energies'. Consider this; When you die your body ceases to be of any use, save fertiliser for the ground, but once that mortal coil is shed it allows the energy trapped inside to be released, and 'pool' with the rest of the dead energy. Some would have this energy named a soul. They aren't far wrong.
As anyone with a basic knowledge of science will tell you, energy cannot simply disappear, it merely changes state. Think of when you made a mock plane as a child, you made wings, a tube for a fuselage, a propeller and rigged a rubber band inside. When wound, this band would unwind itself to power the bands, elastic energy becoming kinetic energy (movement). The same principle applies to us, as when we die the electric energy contained within that powers the internal organs like the heart and brain, is projected from the corpse to roam free. So what of this energy?

This energy is simple in it's nature, it serves to create new life, new planets, new systems, but how? That's where it becomes more complex. The energy cannot exist in the 3rd dimension, the reason we cannot detect it's passage from the body to the aura is simply because to us it's invisible, existing only in the 4th dimension of space/time, which allows it to traverse the vast expanse of space itself. A great deal of this life-force energy is used in the creation of new stars from nebula nurseries, while the rest is dispersed to other tasks. This is the force that we have been incorrectly naming God, and while it serves to do many God-like chores, it cannot create a heaven, grant wishes or perform miracles. It's simply there to progress life itself.

Thank you gentle reader. May your eyes now be open.

She lied.

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  16:47:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to the Skeptic Friends Network, Sfhts.

Now about this "energy," if we cannot detect it, how do you know it exists?

The actual physical energy contained within our bodies comes from food, and when we die it becomes heat and food (for other creatures). The energy we can detect, that is.

You are positing a new sort of energy, so where does it come from?

And if this "God" you speak of does nothing different from the pureply physical processes that we call "biology," why call it "energy" or anything different from what it is?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  18:02:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "energy" you are talking about is obviously theconventional scientific term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) since you associate it specifically with life (energy can be associated with non-living things) and even call it "lifeforce energy". So please define that first so we can determine that it actually exists before you start telling us all about it. Otherwise this is just a vague idea without any evidence behind it and nowhere to go in the conversation. Certainly nothing eye opening.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 06/27/2009 18:03:46
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  18:13:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Sfhts

For too long people have stared at the skies and dreamt of an omnipotent being watching over them, guiding them while creating "miracles" to help them in their day to day life. Oh how wrong they were! They believed that this mighty being created Earth, and indeed life itself, they weren't wrong. Well, they weren't that far off the mark, put it that way.

So if God exists, but not in the traditional sense, how does that work? Well reader, God is an entity made up of millions, if not billions of 'energies'. Consider this; When you die your body ceases to be of any use, save fertiliser for the ground, but once that mortal coil is shed it allows the energy trapped inside to be released, and 'pool' with the rest of the dead energy. Some would have this energy named a soul. They aren't far wrong.
As anyone with a basic knowledge of science will tell you, energy cannot simply disappear, it merely changes state. Think of when you made a mock plane as a child, you made wings, a tube for a fuselage, a propeller and rigged a rubber band inside. When wound, this band would unwind itself to power the bands, elastic energy becoming kinetic energy (movement). The same principle applies to us, as when we die the electric energy contained within that powers the internal organs like the heart and brain, is projected from the corpse to roam free. So what of this energy?

This energy is simple in it's nature, it serves to create new life, new planets, new systems, but how? That's where it becomes more complex. The energy cannot exist in the 3rd dimension, the reason we cannot detect it's passage from the body to the aura is simply because to us it's invisible, existing only in the 4th dimension of space/time, which allows it to traverse the vast expanse of space itself. A great deal of this life-force energy is used in the creation of new stars from nebula nurseries, while the rest is dispersed to other tasks. This is the force that we have been incorrectly naming God, and while it serves to do many God-like chores, it cannot create a heaven, grant wishes or perform miracles. It's simply there to progress life itself.

Thank you gentle reader. May your eyes now be open.


My eyes are open, but I just can"t keep 'em still

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  19:15:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to SFN, Sfhts!

I could say "Michael Jackson is alive" with equal accuracy. After all, isn't his music still "alive" in our brains? Aren't our memories of how he used his wealth to avoid the consequences of his pedophilia and drug addictions still living, warm and fuzzy? No matter that his lifeless corpse has ceased to function; if I define "alive" with sufficient inaccuracy/poetry/meaninglessness, Wacko Jacko lives on!

Your argument for God requires that God be meaningless. There's no intelligent agency to worship, to pray to, to fear the wrath of, to obey. No morality, no powers, no religious bigotry, no nothing. No self-respecting Believer would care to acknowledge such a God. No critically thinking skeptic would do anything but laugh briefly at this old Deist trick of presenting a deity that is so debased and that it is as insignificant as it is unfalsifiable.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Sfhts
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  19:44:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Sfhts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your eyes are shut tight, child.
My argument for God does not require it to be meaningless, because of it's extreme influences on the universe we live in. If everything is "birthed" in certain points of our universe, by use of the this complex energy, how can that be without meaning? New stars are not a thing of meaningless, unless you're implying that if it's not whithin your reach or eyesight it doesn't matter. That's kind of like saying "Sure, I can hear the smoke alarm but I can't smell the fire or see the flames...I call bullshit."

She lied.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  19:55:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Sfhts

Your eyes are shut tight, child.
My argument for God does not require it to be meaningless, because of it's extreme influences on the universe we live in. If everything is "birthed" in certain points of our universe, by use of the this complex energy, how can that be without meaning? New stars are not a thing of meaningless, unless you're implying that if it's not whithin your reach or eyesight it doesn't matter. That's kind of like saying "Sure, I can hear the smoke alarm but I can't smell the fire or see the flames...I call bullshit."


The problem with your theory is that you don't understand anything about how energy actually behaves.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Science Pricktion
New Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  19:59:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Science Pricktion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it makes perfect sense.

Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  20:19:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Sfhts

Your eyes are shut tight, child.
My argument for God does not require it to be meaningless, because of it's extreme influences on the universe we live in. If everything is "birthed" in certain points of our universe, by use of the this complex energy, how can that be without meaning? New stars are not a thing of meaningless, unless you're implying that if it's not whithin your reach or eyesight it doesn't matter. That's kind of like saying "Sure, I can hear the smoke alarm but I can't smell the fire or see the flames...I call bullshit."
Smug patronizing proves nothing but your own lack of civility. No, stars are not without meaning. Defining God as the "energy" in anything and everything is meaningless puffery, displaying a mushy mind. You've essentially said nothing at all.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  21:07:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Science Pricktion

I think it makes perfect sense.

Really? Explain it in a way that can be falsified. Either one of you.

What we seem to have here is a woo woo contention that's about as valid as, well, a woo woo contention.

Not that I really care. There are a lot of those going around. It's amazing how many people have it all figured out...



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  21:09:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not sure about what 'energy' you are talking about.

As you mentioned, our body 'serve as fertilizer' essentially, bacteria use the chemical energies it contains to feed their growth. Quickly breaking down the energy rich chemicals into poorer compounds.

You mention the soul, but it's a purely religious concept. If you want to look at the concept from a purely scientific point of view, there is little reason to believe it exists and that the human mind is anything else than the product of the brain activity.
As for the brain activity itself, you have to realize that the energy levels are very very low. Brain activity is due to a difference of potential between both sides of the membrane of nerve cells due to the difference in concentration of various electrically charged molecules. As we know concentrations gradients always tend toward equilibrium so you need the cell metabolism to permanently aliment the activity of the pumps on the cell membrane to actively pump the molecules against the concentration gradient in an energy consuming manner, baring that, the concentration will spontaneously and rather quickly equilibrate and the corresponding energy will diffuse as heat into the environment, not that it would be noticeable... As I said, the energy levels are really tiny...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  21:53:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Sfhts

Your eyes are shut tight, child.
And yet, not a single answer to any of my questions. If HalfMooner's eyes are shut, it's clear that yours are, too.

It's really that simple: propose a method through which you know that this undetectable energy exists, in such a way that we can agree that what you say is at least plausible in our universe. As soon as you do that, we'll be able to differentiate the dogmatic, eyes-shut disbelievers from the real skeptics, because the real skeptics will all be saying, "oh, yeah, once you've explained it, it's all so obvious, thanks!"

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Landrew
New Member

44 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2009 :  22:27:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Landrew a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is simple certitude. It's the lowest and easiest mode of belief. Simply put, it's something you choose to "put" in your mind as an absolute fact, without verification or proper rationale.

Excuse me, but I and many other intelligent people simply can't commit such intellectual dishonesty. A belief should be able to withstand questioning and testing. religious suppositions often fail on these accounts. After all, if something is true, no amount of questioning can disprove it.

If truth has nothing to fear, then why do religious people fear inquiry about religion so much?

God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  00:18:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Landrew

This is simple certitude. It's the lowest and easiest mode of belief. Simply put, it's something you choose to "put" in your mind as an absolute fact, without verification or proper rationale.
In other words, faith?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Landrew
New Member

44 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  07:36:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Landrew a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simple faith, blind faith, earned faith or verified faith?
I think there are many ways to achieve faith:

I have faith in things that stand up to questioning, critical testing and are derived from rational arguments and good evidence.

Another way to have faith is to simply believe everything someone tells you.

Some faith is based on choosing the belief which seems to gratify your emotions the most.

Much faith is based on a personal fascination with people who display charisma.

I have more faith in the type of conclusions that are derived from a reasonable period of uncertainty, sufficient enough to provide a well-informed opinion.


God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2009 :  08:08:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
~~ Ambrose Bierce

I have faith only in that which study and experience has shown me is correct. I have faith that the earth will rotate in such a manner that the sun will appear to rise in the east each morning, even though I have faith that someday it will not.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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