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 New movie, more Expelled-type deceptions
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  14:08:39  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In an email I recieved to day from the NCSE.


Dear Friends of NCSE,

A new creationist movie is accused of misleading and misrepresenting
its interview subjects...

HISTORIANS MISREPRESENTED BY CREATIONISTS

Three historians of science are unhappy about their treatment in a
creationist movie about Darwin, as they explain in a note in the July
2009 Newsletter of the History of Science Society. Peter Bowler, Janet
Browne, and Sandra Herbert write, "We have recently been featured in a
documentary film, 'The Voyage that Shook the World,' produced by
Fathom Media of Australia and directed by Stephen Murray of Synergy
Films, New Zealand. We were led to believe that the movie was being
made to be shown as an educational film on Australian broadcast
television and possibly elsewhere. Fathom Media was revealed to be a
subsidiary of Creation Ministries International when publicity for the
movie began to appear on the internet."

Previously, William Crawley, a blogger for the BBC, reported (June 21,
2009) that Bowler was "unhappy to be appearing in what he regards as
an 'anti-Darwinian' film which offers an historically distorted
portrait of Darwin" and that he along with Browne and Herbert "only
discovered that they had inadvertently contributed to a Creationist
film a month before the film's release." Phil Bell, the CEO of
Creationist Ministries UK, acknowledged that Fathom Media was
established as a front company, explaining, "At the end of the day ...
[when] people see 'Creationist', instantly the shutters go up and that
would have shut us off from talking to the sort of experts, such as
Professor Bowler, that we wanted to get to."

Crawley added, "I asked Phil Bell if this method of securing an
interview was 'deceptive'. He said: 'Well, it could be called
deceptive. But I think, at the end of the day, I would say that more
people are concerned about how we've made a documentary, that's a
world-class documentary, clearly with wonderful footage, with
excellent interviews, and balanced open discussion.'" A subsequent
statement, posted on CMI's website on June 27, 2009, amplified: "We
were and are under an obligation to speak the truth, but not to
provide exhaustive information where it was not sought," adding,
"Further, and perhaps most importantly, we were determined to deal
fairly with the material that the interviewees provided."

The interviewees themselves, however, are not satisfied with the
fairness of the movie, writing, "Janet Browne's remarks about his
childhood delight in making up stories to impress people is used to
imply that the same motive may have driven his scientific thinking.
Peter Bowler's description of Darwin's later views on racial
inequality is used in the film, but not Bowler's account of Adrian
Desmond and James Moore's thesis [in Darwin's Sacred Cause] that
Darwin was inspired by his opposition to racism and slavery. Sandra
Herbert's comment that Darwin's theory required explanation of many
aspects of life was edited down to imply that his theory required
explanation of all aspects of life."

Bowler, Browne, and Herbert end their article by musing, "Academics
perhaps do need to be more aware of the fact that the media
organizations are not always open about their underlying agendas."
(The similar case of Expelled springs to mind.) "Had we known the true
origins of Fathom Media," they continue, "we probably would not have
contributed, but the producers do have a point: if academic historians
refuse to participate when movements they don't approve of seek
historical information, these historians can hardly complain if less
reputable sources are used instead." They accordingly recommend a few
websites for information on the history of Darwin and evolution,
including NCSE's.

So far, The Voyage that Shook the World seems to have attracted little
attention independentl

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  14:35:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I look at this as the historian's fault -- they should know by now! You can't trust the movie-makers and certainly not the media. The Expelled fiasco clearly demonstrated that.

Misrepresentations and outright lies are the Creationist's stock in trade.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  16:42:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Former scienceblogger John Lynch notes that some historians have some things to say about that movie, just as has already been pointed out.




>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 07/24/2009 16:44:17
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  16:49:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lying for Jesus, the noblest of calling for these people.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  21:14:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Lying for Jesus, the noblest of calling for these people.
Oh, but they don't consider it lying:
We were and are under an obligation to speak the truth, but not to provide exhaustive information where it was not sought. The Bible says of Jesus that “no deceit was in his mouth” (1 Peter 2:22), yet he withheld information from those who were not ready to receive it, including the Pharisees (Matt. 21:23–27) and even his own disciples (John 16:12).
See, it was the evolutionists' fault for not asking if they were creationists. So they didn't actually lie, they just failed to be forthright about their motives. A lie of omission can't be a real lie because Jesus did it too and Jesus wouldn't lie. QED


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/24/2009 23:43:47
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  22:49:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lie by omission anyone?
What fuckin' hypocrisy!

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  03:32:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Creation Miseries International was once Answers in Genesis until Ken Ham came to America and severely ripped them off. There was a pretty acrimonious lawsuit over it -- I'll dig up the details if asked but am too lazy to do it now. Oh wait; here's a link that will explain the whole, sordid thing in some detail.

CMI is the home digs of Dr. Jonathon Sarfati, my old and bitter adversary at TheologyWeb, and Dr. Carl Wieland, an MD. Sarfati's another PhD (Chemistry) who hasn't published in his field in decades and is a consummate liar. He can get pretty nasty about it in the bargain.

So, the lesson here is: Never talk to Creationists on camera, and demand credentials from anyone whom you don't know that wants you on camera.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:15:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jim Lippard weighs in at The Lippard Blog.

...CMI takes issue, however, with the two specific allegations by Bowler and Herbert that their words in the interviews were taken out of context and misrepresented in what appears in the film. To rebut them, CMI's website publishes more extensive quotations from these two historians and compares them to how they were edited and placed in the context of the film.

Although I haven't yet had an opportunity to view the screener copy of the film in my possession, the CMI rebuttal appears to be sound with respect to those two specific allegations. The CMI web page concludes by noting that each of the participants was given their raw footage, as well as a copy of the film, and ends by saying, "We are hopeful that it will turn out to have been a case of not having checked the raw footage sent to them, instead relying on memory. We would be delighted to publish news of a retraction of either or both of these two claims in this space, should that occur."

So we can add up the lessons here:

1. Do due diligence about the production company and find out who's behind it before agreeing to appear in a documentary.
2. Make sure your release gives you some way to defend yourself if misrepresented, e.g., make sure you get the raw footage.
3. If you are misrepresented and go public with it, consult the raw footage to make sure your charges of misrepresentation are themselves accurate.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  12:05:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"So we can add up the lessons here:

1. Do due diligence about the production company and find out who's behind it before agreeing to appear in a documentary.
2. Make sure your release gives you some way to defend yourself if misrepresented, e.g., make sure you get the raw footage.
3. If you are misrepresented and go public with it, consult the raw footage to make sure your charges of misrepresentation are themselves accurate. "


Sound advise, that, and applicable to much in life.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  13:53:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The tough thing is researching the production company, as it is probably a brand-new entity created solely for the purpose of making the one movie, and designed to appear innocuous, even sciency. It probably won't have left any meaningful footprints on the Web.

It may be more productive to research the individuals involved in the production. Researching them may uncover links to Creationist groups or fundamentalist churches. They may not be able to cover their personal tracks completely.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  14:14:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the up side, it's not like anyone's going to see this picture. It's just another straight-to-video production for the home schooled creationist crowd. And IMDB lists the movie's user rating at an abysmal 1.2 out of a possible 10.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2009 :  10:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

On the up side, it's not like anyone's going to see this picture. It's just another straight-to-video production for the home schooled creationist crowd. And IMDB lists the movie's user rating at an abysmal 1.2 out of a possible 10.




Exactly! This thing will BOMB just like Expelled.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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