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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:12:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I really don't think these guys work their ass off in the senate. If so Ted should come out and work at my factory for a spell and then he will know what work is. |
What a masterpiece of empty bloviation! "If a dead man wants to see what hard work is all about, I'll show him!" You've topped yourself here, Bill.| If you can gloss this over... |
Still missing the point, too. You want to make Chappaquiddick the entirety of Kennedy's legacy, Bill. Other people don't, and for good reason: as with any other human being, there was laudable behavior mixed in with the indefensible. You can ignore Kennedy's accomplishments, but then it is you who is sweeping stuff under the rug, Bill. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:26:34 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | Now I am bigoted against rich people? Oh brother. Now come on Kil, your a contractor and you know what it is like to make a buck out in the real world. I am a working man myself. Ted Kennedy was born into a privileged family, he rode his brothers coattails right into the US senate, he races Yachts for Pete's sake. I don't know how one working man can look another working man in the eyes and say with a straight face that TK worked his ass off. LOL!!!!! It's physically imposable to work your ass off when your as plump as he was. People who work their ass off don't end up looking like the Michelin Man. It just don't happen. People who lead a life of comfort and ease do. |
First of all, your fat jokes really fall flat as any kind of evidence of Kennedy's privileged position in life when you consider the plain fact that in the USA, fat is more associated with poverty and the working class, and the upper classes are more likely to be trim and in better shape because they are the ones with less life stress and who can afford better health care as well as personal trainers and healthier food which tastes much better. You are just grasping at air.
The paragraph above does indeed show that you have a bias against wealth people. Apparently rich people don't live in the "real world." Again, I'd like to point out how relative this stuff is. Compared to most people in the world, working stiffs such as yourself in the USA are incredibly wealthy. You have access to luxuries that many people in the world will never have access to, no matter their personal merit, and which most will only have access to if they possess truly extraordinary personal characteristics which enable them to overcome their circumstances.
It is difficult not to resent rich people when they use their power to gain personal benefits which other people don't get. Kennedy's family pulled plenty of strings through especially his youth to make sure he served only two years instead of four in the military and that he was stationed in Europe. However, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing for my son if I had the means, especially considering that they'd already lost one child in military service. They also pulled strings to get him into Harvard even though he got bad grades. And he lead a reckless, spoiled personal life in many ways. He has tons in common with George W. Bush and many other children of rich Americans. But unlike most spoiled children of priviledge, Ted Kennedy devoted his own career to getting good programs and regulations passed. He easily could have devoted his life to nothing but shallow hedonism (such as Paris Hilton, for example) or used his inheritance and fame to increase his wealth. But instead he devoted his career to public service and spent much of his personal wealth on campaigns so that he could continue that service throughout his life.
It seems the only thing which would please you would be if Kennedy had given away all of his wealth and got some working class job and led a typical working class life. I've never understood the idea that it is better for people with power to give up their power rather than using their power for good. Ted Kennedy certainly didn't exclusively use his power and position for good, but then again, I can't complain when I spend money on going out to eat, dying my hair, going on vacations, and many other luxuries instead of giving all my expendable income away to humanitarian causes. When you give away all of your expendable income to people who live in abject poverty then I'll take you more seriously. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:41:40 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude |
| Billy Billy Billy..... You really are an imbecile, aren't you? |
You did make it out of the 5th grade, right? This is not that difficult.
| You are saying thet Kennedy wanted to cover up something, so he left a woman to die. As if covering up a death would be easier than covering up an affair and/or car crash! |
No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying he had two choices after giving up and leaving the crash scene:
1. He could have went to the houses with the lights on that were just 150 yards from the crash sight for help where as reported divers and those trained in water rescue could have been on the scene in minutes with diving gear to attempt a water rescue. The upside is this would haven given Mary Jo the best shot at living through the crash. To have real live water rescue people called in that is. The down side is this would also involve the cops and the whole story of the drunk senator out at lovers lane with his girlfriend would have been exposed, in effect ending any shot he may have had for the white house.
or
2. He could gamble and go back to the party and get his friends and they could come back and hopefully help him rescue Mary Jo. The upside to this (if it worked) was that no police would have to be involved and no one would ever know. They could tell the cops the car was stolen and then ditched in the water, end of story. Two weeks from then Ted and his boyz would be laughing over a tall and stiff one about the night that ol' crazy Kennedy drove his car into the Atlantic. The downside here is none of these guys have diving equipment nor are they water rescue people and they have been drinking on top of it. This would diminish the chances for Mary Jo, but any chance at keeping this under the table would be worth the risk to Mary Jo.
| He's a fucking Kennedy! Money, power, powerful friends. |
And that's my whole point. Any other person would have been going to jail over this. But not if your a US senator named Kennedy. Money, power blah blah blah...
| If the girl had been alive don't you think he could have brushed the whole thing under the rug, so to speak, much easier, if that had been his intent? |
He was banking that he could go get his friends, return to rescue Mary Jo, and the authorities would never be involved and nothing would ever come of it. Again the down side of this plan is if it does not work you now have a dead girlfriend on your hands. But like you said this is a rich and powerful Kennedy, don't let the threat of little manslaughter charge get in the way. Those thinks can be taken care of.
| Your imbecilic claim that he would let a person die to cover up an affair (as if an affair is worse than being involved in a death) proves that you are the delusional one. |
You have just been unable or unwilling to comprehend the conversation. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:53:07 [Permalink]
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Coward & jerk again -- ok, here's two for the price of one and neither fit to clean Kennedy's bedpan.
Oddly, or perhaps not; or perhaps even typically, we've heard none of this whining since the original furor over Chappaquiddick died down.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:16:41 [Permalink]
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Hmm, looks like Bush I isn't going to make the funeral. What a pity...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:26:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Coward & jerk again -- ok, here's two for the price of one and neither fit to clean Kennedy's bedpan.
Oddly, or perhaps not; or perhaps even typically, we've heard none of this whining since the original furor over Chappaquiddick died down.
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If you go back and read the whole thread you will see that Kil is the one who started in with the whole coward and jerk thing. I just jumped on it when he did. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:31:35 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by marfknox |
| What track record? Chappaquiddick is the only thing in Ted Kennedy's track record that you've brought up! |
I was referring to all politicians in general here.
| You have stated several times that you think he was delusional! |
I said that him having perfectly cohenrent conversations with many different people after the accident was for sure a sign of being delusional. I then typed *sigh* to show that what I was saying was satire. As if that was not obvious already. Ted made it back to the party just fine. Took his friends back to the crash sight just fine. Made it back to the hotel just fine. Had a coherent conversation with the hotel owner at 2:55am just fine. Had a coherent conversation with a fellow yahct racer at 7:30am. Was making calls on the phone to his friends asking for legal advice. This guy was anything but delusional. Calculating maybe, delusional he was not. I did say that he was delusional about the fact that his was all going to somehow go away. But his actions were far from delusional in the sense that he portayed himself walking around in some zombie state. Nope, ain't buying it.
| The difference is that you claim his delusion was that he believed he could get away with it. Other people find it just as plausible that he was temporarily deluded into thinking the accident wasn't a big deal/that Mary Jo was already being saved by his friends. |
Yet he took his friends back to the scene to try and rescue her. He rambled this out the next morning when his friends started to put the heat on him about why he had not called the police yet. He's really starting to panic now.
| Yeah, and I guess the founding fathers weren't doing any real work when they were writing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Hemmingway and Tolstoy were such lazy shits, sitting around writing their silly little novels. Picasso and his silly paintings. Martin Luther King and his speeches. Everybody knows that brain work isn't really work. |
I have done both in my lifetime and brain work is cake compared to a hard day of physical labor. There is a reason I went to school. I have done both and I will take the brain labor any day of the week over manual labor. My job now I can work my ass off all day long and still come home and go for a 2 hour bike ride. You work 8-10 hours of physical labor every day and your going straight to the couch at 5PM
| Look, if you are going to piss all over politicians just for being politicians, you are basically promoting either anarchy or some other system of governance which you have yet to explain. So what's the deal, Bill? Do you consider our whole system of governance in this country bullshit, and if so, what do you propose as a better alternative? I'm not saying that our current system is perfect or even great, but since I can't think of a better one off hand, I'm going to celebrate the good things which are accomplished under our current system. |
I just don't think they deserve a free pass for manslaughter becasue they are a senator named Kennedy. Is that to high of a standard to expect?
| It's all relative, Bill. You apparently have the leisure time to spend on this forum, access to Internet, and I'm imagining lead a pretty typical American lifestyle. You ever wonder what the average American lifestyle looks like to the average Ethiopian? |
Right. But I would not expect to get away with manslaughter just because of my privileged lifestyle. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:37:17 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Originally posted by Bill scott
I really don't think these guys work their ass off in the senate. If so Ted should come out and work at my factory for a spell and then he will know what work is. |
What a masterpiece of empty bloviation! "If a dead man wants to see what hard work is all about, I'll show him!" You've topped yourself here, Bill. |
If so Ted could have come out and worked at my factory for a spell and then he would have know what work is. Better? Let's not play semantics shall we.
| If you can gloss this over... |
Still missing the point, too. You want to make Chappaquiddick the entirety of Kennedy's legacy, Bill. Other people don't, and for good reason: as with any other human being, there was laudable behavior mixed in with the indefensible. You can ignore Kennedy's accomplishments, but then it is you who is sweeping stuff under the rug, Bill. |
But on the flip side this forum seems to fixate entirely on the fact that they liked the way Kennedy voted and worked his ass off in the senate. Other people don't, and for good reason. The forum can ignore Kennedy's indefensible behavior, but then it is just them who is sweeping stuff under the rug. I have never once said that Kennedy did zero good things in the senate. All I am saying is they must realize they are praising a guy who has refused all the way to the grave to come clean with his mansluhter actions even though everybody all ready knows that he gambled with Mary Jo's life that night in effort to save his own hide. Does that wipe under the rug any good he might have done in the senate? For some yes and for some no. Does any good work he may have done in the senate wipe away manslaughter? Some may say yes while others will say no. But hey, even OJ had his defenders. Shoot I am sure OJ has even done good things in his life. I know he has worked his ass off. Still ain't gonna sweep his dirt wunder the rug. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:50:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
Coward & jerk again -- ok, here's two for the price of one and neither fit to clean Kennedy's bedpan.
Oddly, or perhaps not; or perhaps even typically, we've heard none of this whining since the original furor over Chappaquiddick died down.
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If you go back and read the whole thread you will see that Kil is the one who started in with the whole coward and jerk thing. I just jumped on it when he did.
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What difference does that make?
But take heart; the friggin' Pope seems to agree with you. Of course, his reasons differ a bit from yours, he having no problem with dead women, but hey, an ally is an ally, right?
By JEFF ISRAELY Jeff Israely – Thu Aug 27, 1:55 pm ET
There was a poignant footnote to President Obama's historic July 10 meeting with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican. Behind closed doors in the papal library, Obama handed Benedict a letter that Senator Edward Kennedy had asked him to personally deliver to the pontiff. White House spokesman Robert Gibbs later told reporters that nobody - not even the President - knew the contents of the sealed missive. Obama himself asked Benedict to pray for Kennedy, and called the ailing Senator afterward to fill him in on his encounter with the 82-year-old Pope.
The letter, most likely already re-sealed and tucked away in the Vatican archives, was probably just a dying Catholic's request for a papal blessing. In the eyes of the traditionalist wing of the Church, however, Kennedy should have been asking the Pope for forgiveness. The Vatican's official newspaper L'Osservatore Romano reported Kennedy's death, praising his work on civil rights and fighting poverty, but noted that his record was marred by his stance on abortion. As of yet, unlike some other world leaders, Pope Benedict has not commented or issued an official communique in response to Kennedy's death. One veteran official at the Vatican, of U.S. nationality, expressed the view of many conservatives about the Kennedy clan's rapport with the Catholic Church: "Why would he even write a letter to the Pope? The Kennedys have always been defiantly in opposition to the Roman Catholic magisterium." Magisterium is the formal expression for the authority of Church teaching. (See a Kennedy family photo album.)
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:51:36 [Permalink]
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Poor delusional liar for jebus that you are bill, you should still be able to grasp some simple concepts. If I grant you that he wanted to cover up (for argument's sake only) then you will have to explain how it makes more sense to pass by a house that, as you alledge, had the equipment and skill to perform a water rescue and instead walked back to a party. Surely he could have gotten them to rescue the girl and keep quiet? If he was so clinical, and in posession of his mental faculties, as you claim, and actively working to cover something up, surely it would be obvious to him that a dead girl is much harder to cover than a live rescued one?
Your idiotic allegation makes no sense. Comming from you that is hardly news though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:05:44 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude |
| Poor delusional liar for jebus that you are bill, you should still be able to grasp some simple concepts. If I grant you that he wanted to cover up (for argument's sake only) |
Because you have already concluded, in spite of the evidence, that there was no cover up.
| then you will have to explain how it makes more sense to pass by a house that, as you alledge, had the equipment and skill to perform a water rescue and instead walked back to a party. Surely he could have gotten them to rescue the girl and keep quiet? |
I never said that the house had the equipment to perform a water rescue. The diver who recovered the body said that Kennedy could have called the police and authority's from the house, who then in turn could have got the water rescue people out there in minutes. But this would have involved the police, a most unwanted buzz kill for sure.
| If he was so clinical, and in posession of his mental faculties, as you claim, and actively working to cover something up, surely it would be obvious to him that a dead girl is much harder to cover than a live rescued one? |
Your confusing yourself again.
| Your idiotic allegation makes no sense. Comming from you that is hardly news though. |
Your a strange dude. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:11:04 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| What difference does that make? |
Because Kil called me a coward and a jerk. I simply said that, no a coward and a jerk is one who wagers his own girlfriends life for political gain. The whole forum then seemed to go ape$hit about me implying that Kennedy was a coward and a jerk. Get over it. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:25:00 [Permalink]
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If you think Bill had the hate on for Kennedy, get a load of this guy.
What gets me is how conservatives in general just hated Kennedy because of that Chappaquidick affair, yet they (with the apparent exception of Bill?) have no problems with the war that Bush started with all the lives that took, and the torture of the people in Guantanamo.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:32:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
| What difference does that make? |
Because Kil called me a coward and a jerk. I simply said that, no a coward and a jerk is one who wagers his own girlfriends life for political gain. The whole forum then seemed to go ape$hit about me implying that Kennedy was a coward and a jerk. Get over it.
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But I didn't call you a coward and a jerk, did I? No, I used those titles on people far more deserving of them than you. I can come up with plenty more if you like.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:32:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
If you think Bill had the hate on for Kennedy, get a load of this guy.
What gets me is how conservatives in general just hated Kennedy because of that Chappaquidick affair, yet they (with the apparent exception of Bill?) have no problems with the war that Bush started with all the lives that took, and the torture of the people in Guantanamo.
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At least the guy could laugh at himself:
Biographer Of Ted Kennedy--> He Loved Chappaquiddick Jokes
Fri, 2009-08-28 20:40.
On the day of Senator Kennedy's death, this site published an article about the Democrats exploiting the Senator's death to push Obamacare. The title of the article, "Lets Kill Grandma for Teddy Kennedy," was met with some derision as some readers felt that it did not pay proper respect for the dead.
The gallows humor sometimes displayed on this site is nothing compared to what the Senator used himself. Apparently one of his favorite humor subjects was Chappaquiddick, the incident 40 years ago where the Senator drove off a bridge, saved himself and allowed a young woman to die in his car.
Here is a selection of the Diane Rehm Show on NPR. She is interviewing Ed Klein, who just wrote a biography of the Senator:
Kay: Ed Klein, that's what I'm hearing today, that people are sad at his passing, and yet celebrating this huge life and its huge long list of accomplishments.
Klein: I think he'd be the last person who would want us, those he's left behind, to, um, be, uh, morose and, and full of bathos. I think he, he --
Kay: He would come in with a big guffawing laugh and make us laugh too.
Klein: He would, yes. You're so right, he would. And he'd probably have a joke to tell as well.
Kay: At his own expense.
Klein: Well y'know, he, I don't know if you know this or not but, one of his favorite topics of humor was indeed Chappaquiddick itself. And he would ask people, "have you heard any new jokes about Chappaquiddick?"
I mean, that is just the most amazing thing. It's not that he didn't feel remorse about the death of Mary Jo Kopechne (background music begins building), but that he still always saw, um, the other side of everything and the ridiculous side of things, too.
Kay: Ed Klein, former foreign editor of Newsweek, and author of a new book on Ted Kennedy.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ted Kennedy has died
