|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2009 : 22:25:22 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Let me put it more directly: we don't question people who value art or thing which they collect... |
The hell "we" don't. I stopped collecting not-free stuff years ago (because it was all a waste of money), and am trying to get my wife to do the same. There's a guy at work who's managed to get himself the nickname "Fred Sanford" because of the utter crap he pays for and stores in his yard...
...I'm trying to think of other people's collections I criticize for being a waste, but most of the other people I know who collect stuff either do so as an investment (in which case it's the opposite of being a waste), or do so for free (like my mother-in-law's collection of apples - people give her apple-related items, she doesn't buy them for herself).
I criticize waste at home, I criticize waste at work. I criticize waste in my local, State and Federal governments. Why should I not criticize waste at funerals (and weddings, birthday parties, bar miztvahs, graduations, my neighbor's gas-guzzler, etc.)? And, of course, I do my best to avoid being wasteful, myself (I tried, I really did, to have a franks-and-beans wedding reception, but my mother-in-law wouldn't stand for it).
Now where were we? The National Casket Retailers Association reported that in 1997, there were 2.3 million deaths, and (rounding) $23 billion in funeral-related services, for an average of $10,000 per dead person in services. Since there were (coincidentally) about 23,000 funeral homes in the US, each funeral home was looking at a cool million bucks in revenue per year. If we assume that only 20% of that is paid out in salaries, that'd give a full-time staff of three fairly comfortable livings, especially when they only have to deal with one "customer" every 3.65 days (on average). But I have a hard time believing that it costs $500,000 to run a funeral home per year (assuming a standard 30% profit, too).
Especially when it looks like the average cost of nice, silk boxers is about $15. If the guy who puts 'em on the body makes $30 an hour, and it takes ten minutes to wrestle a pair onto a corpse, then boxers cost $20 but the family's being charged $400, a profit margin of not 30%, but of 95%. Even if the dresser makes $300 an hour (because few people want the job), the cost only goes up to $65, a profit margin of almost 84%.
Interestingly, the casket retailers' newsletter suggests that a major problem for people trying to just sell caskets is that funeral-home directors underprice coffins (and inflate the price of everything else) in order to coax customers into "one-stop shopping," so that they don't lose money by having the bereaved shop somewhere else for a casket. These folks are even claiming that funeral directors will lie about the law (saying they can't use third-party caskets) or purposefully damage coffins bought elsewhere. This stuff is fascinating, but it makes analysis much more complex.
By the way, if I remember correctly, in 1997 the vitamin-and-supplements industry was worth about $10 billion, so the death industry made over twice as much as the folks allegedly trying to keep people alive. Go figure.
Oh, and if the average wedding costs twice the average funeral, that's not a justification for high funeral costs, it's just another obscenity of waste. Especially since (allegedly) half of marriages end in divorce (which just adds more cost to the wedding, if you think about it). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
 |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 01:10:02 [Permalink]
|
Dave wrote: The hell "we" don't. I stopped collecting not-free stuff years ago (because it was all a waste of money), and am trying to get my wife to do the same. There's a guy at work who's managed to get himself the nickname "Fred Sanford" because of the utter crap he pays for and stores in his yard...
...I'm trying to think of other people's collections I criticize for being a waste, but most of the other people I know who collect stuff either do so as an investment (in which case it's the opposite of being a waste), or do so for free (like my mother-in-law's collection of apples - people give her apple-related items, she doesn't buy them for herself). |
So do you oppose public subsidies for art museums? After all, the only reason we value all those artifacts is our ideas about how they relate to history. Shouldn't it be enough to simply have fully documented their existence and meaning in the context of history? We don't need to spend money on carefully conditioned, monitored, and aesthetically-design spaces so that the public can come to view works of art. So that's a waste, right? Hell, it's a waste to spend $35.00 on the admission ticket to a museum plus the additional admission to see a special exhibit of works by Frida Kahlo. After all, one can easily go to the library and see full color prints of all her paintings for free. Right?
Obviously I'm being sarcastic, but I'm really asking you - do you think these things are a waste?
Regarding those who collect things as an investment - what makes the thing they collect, be they model trains or stamps - worth more over time? They only become worth more because of enough people who collect them out of pure, material desire for that object. So you are saying that it is not a waste for someone to purchase a material object on the assessment that it will probably be worth more in the future and at that time they can sell it for a profit, but it is a waste to purchase a non-utilitarian material object because for whatever emotional reason one wants to enjoy owning it? By that logic, it is not wasteful for people to collect art by famous artists which they then store in a warehouse for years where nobody can actually see and enjoy it, but it is wasteful for the same person to buy a painting by a no-name artist just because they like it and want to be able to look at it whenever they want.
Now where were we? The National Casket Retailers Association reported that in 1997, there were 2.3 million deaths, and (rounding) $23 billion in funeral-related services, for an average of $10,000 per dead person in services. Since there were (coincidentally) about 23,000 funeral homes in the US, each funeral home was looking at a cool million bucks in revenue per year. If we assume that only 20% of that is paid out in salaries, that'd give a full-time staff of three fairly comfortable livings, especially when they only have to deal with one "customer" every 3.65 days (on average). But I have a hard time believing that it costs $500,000 to run a funeral home per year (assuming a standard 30% profit, too).
Especially when it looks like the average cost of nice, silk boxers is about $15. If the guy who puts 'em on the body makes $30 an hour, and it takes ten minutes to wrestle a pair onto a corpse, then boxers cost $20 but the family's being charged $400, a profit margin of not 30%, but of 95%. Even if the dresser makes $300 an hour (because few people want the job), the cost only goes up to $65, a profit margin of almost 84%.
Interestingly, the casket retailers' newsletter suggests that a major problem for people trying to just sell caskets is that funeral-home directors underprice coffins (and inflate the price of everything else) in order to coax customers into "one-stop shopping," so that they don't lose money by having the bereaved shop somewhere else for a casket. These folks are even claiming that funeral directors will lie about the law (saying they can't use third-party caskets) or purposefully damage coffins bought elsewhere. This stuff is fascinating, but it makes analysis much more complex. |
The amount of assumptions you just made based on your starting information is dizzying. Again, funeral directors/morticians make about the same income as accountants and journalists: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Funeral_Director/Salary $30-$80K a year is not what I call a shockingly high salary. It's just enough to live a pretty dead center middle class lifestyle in the USA. Show me evidence of individuals making obscene profits on the death industry.
| Oh, and if the average wedding costs twice the average funeral, that's not a justification for high funeral costs, it's just another obscenity of waste. Especially since (allegedly) half of marriages end in divorce (which just adds more cost to the wedding, if you think about it). |
The people driving the average cost of both weddings and funerals up are people of greater means. The average wedding currently cost about $20K, but that hardly means that most American families are spending that much. Also, the divorce rate is more complicated than that. It has been slowly but steadily declining for over a decade, and when you look at the specifics, it is declining fairly rapidly among the middle and upper classes. So actually, of the people who throw large and/or fancy weddings far less than 50% of them are likely to get a divorce.
But how is a 20K wedding a waste for a family who can afford it anyway? The money goes to all sorts of people who run perfectly legit businesses and again don't make obscene salaries. Most of the cost is in catering and open bars, and then you add on rental of a venue, a DJ, an officiant, and if you have 100-150 guests you are already probably talking about a bill higher than the average funeral. If a family can afford to throw such a party without going into debt and they want to, why shouldn't they? How is that any more of a waste than going out for a fancy anniversary dinner, occasionally spending a lot of money on front row tickets for a special concert or box seats for a sporting event, or any other number of luxuries? How are you defining something as a "waste"? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 01:13:25 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: | That would be wild wouldn't it? What would they even call a study of people and what they do and think? That would be crazy. |
Great way to miss my point. Let me put it more directly: we don't question people who value art or thing which they collect, but for some reason people here are questioning people who value having a loved-one presented and commemorated in death in a manner they find comforting.
|
What I meant here, is that there may in fact be some, yes, even measurable, benefit in having some kind of ritual to say goodbye to the dead. I don't understand why you think this is off limits to science, but that's beside the point. I don't think expensive funerals are necessary, but I did not say that every dollar spent on grieving is a waste. I said that most of the money spent on dead people is a waste. We agreed that my statement about spending money on dead people may have been wrong, but that's what we know. The guy who spent 40 grand for his wife's headstone may have thought he was doing it for his wife. People do think that their dead loved ones are still around.
We do question a lot of other things that people do. We questioned Clinton's expensive haircut. I question the need for spending for a lot of things, so I don't know who "we" is. Again, I'm not the one that rules the world, and that's probably a good thing. I think a lot of art is nonsense. As long as someone enjoys it, it's not a waste, but spending thousands of dollars on one painting is a waste. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 07:17:52 [Permalink]
|
I wouldn't mind my survivors dropping some cash on memorial service (or whatever you want to call it), preferably as per my previously expressed wishes. But whatever it costs, please, oh please, don't let it be one of those deathly dull, standing around the coffin, making uncomfortable small talk, everybody really just wants to get the hell out of here and get some fresh air kind of affairs.
I think the current "typical" visitation and funeral found in America is a waste, not because I think people are overpaid for providing it, but because the end product is so awful. But people don't think outside the satin lined box, and instead get what the Joneses had because they think that's the "proper" way to do it. I'd like to see the death industry put the "fun" in funeral for a change. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
|
|
|
|
R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 07:22:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by R.Wreck
And further, that if possible, I would like a party at a golf course, where I would be propped up with a beer in one hand and a cigar in the other, while the guests would enjoy food and drink. |
My wife doesn't want any sort of viewing. She made me promise that if any of her family insist on a viewing, that I would rig her corpse so that at random times it would sit upright in the coffin, and say, "don't I look natural?"
|
Animatronics! That's what I'm talking about! This could revolutionize the funeral game. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 08:03:12 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
How are you defining something as a "waste"? |
That's the key to the whole thing, isn't it? I think it's pretty obvious that I think things are wasteful that you don't. Or at least, you're willing to suspend your judgment if you think that someone thinks that what they're doing isn't a waste.
But you're making some assumptions that are simply strange. By "waste," I'm saying that I think the money is being spent in a way that doesn't match my priorities. So sure, a $50,000 wedding makes that money move into a bunch of other peoples' pockets, but there are other things that the money could be spent on (still moving it into other peoples' pockets) that would be more productive for the couple and their families and friends. In other words, "it's a waste" means "I think these people's priorities are screwed up," and not "this money shouldn't have been spent."
I mean, look at the "bridge to nowhere" fiasco from last year. That would have put millions of dollars into the bank accounts of thousands of middle-class workers, but as a Federally funded project it was a waste because other projects for the same money would have been more productive for the whole country. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 23:15:25 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo wrote: | What I meant here, is that there may in fact be some, yes, even measurable, benefit in having some kind of ritual to say goodbye to the dead. I don't understand why you think this is off limits to science, but that's beside the point. |
I don't think anything is off limits to science. I just don't think we need scientific evidence of the benefit to justify it on a personal level.
| I don't think expensive funerals are necessary, |
Of course they aren't necessary. But I tend to think there is a wide area between things which are necessary and things which are a waste. If I didn't I wouldn't make and sell artwork.
| but I did not say that every dollar spent on grieving is a waste. |
I didn't mean to imply you did, and I'm sorry if I came off that way.
| I said that most of the money spent on dead people is a waste. We agreed that my statement about spending money on dead people may have been wrong, but that's what we know. The guy who spent 40 grand for his wife's headstone may have thought he was doing it for his wife. People do think that their dead loved ones are still around. |
That seems like speculation. I don't know whether someone is more likely or less likely to spend obscene amounts of money on memorializing their loved-one if they think they are really gone or just gone from this plane of existence. But I also don't think it matters. It won't be cheap for me to have my husband's ashes shot into space if indeed it comes to that, but I'll do it for him if I can afford it, even though I'll be aware that "he" doesn't exist anymore.
| We do question a lot of other things that people do. We questioned Clinton's expensive haircut. |
Did you mean John Edwards? That really pissed me off that people made a big damn deal about his $400.00 haircut during the primary. Until the scandal with his affair, he was my favorite candidate because he was the only person really talking about the poor and advocating policies which would aid the poor in America. Everybody else was just talking about the middle class.
| I question the need for spending for a lot of things, so I don't know who "we" is. Again, I'm not the one that rules the world, and that's probably a good thing. I think a lot of art is nonsense. As long as someone enjoys it, it's not a waste, but spending thousands of dollars on one painting is a waste. |
Which is it - not a waste so long as someone enjoys it or a waste if it costs thousands of dollars? You are certainly entitled to your views. Although I'm glad you don't rule the world. I really like cultural museums and think they serve a valuable purpose in civilization. I've probably spent a few thousand dollars visiting countries for the sole purpose of viewing cultural artifacts up close. It's more than mere "enjoyment"; that is the realm of entertainment, which is basically escapism. The sort of enjoyment people get from arts and culture brings people deeper into the human experience and provokes new thoughts and feelings. I know at least one person who cried when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamyan - and he wasn't a Buddhist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2009 : 23:25:35 [Permalink]
|
Dave, fair points made about what you mean when you say something is a waste. I guess what is bugging me is the amount of what I perceive as holier-than-thou judging of how some people decide to mourn and commemorate their deceased loved-ones. No real social ill has been addressed. To give an example of what I mean, I've heard and read about funerals in Ghana being relatively expensive to the point of being a real problem for the economy. http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/artikel.php?ID=117472
I just don't see funerals in the USA as being any kind of special problem. In fact, the amount that Americans spend on funerals has been declining, and there is a clear trend toward humbler affairs. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 01:33:48 [Permalink]
|
| I guess the Clinton story has been debunked. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/30/2009 01:34:48 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 21:23:18 [Permalink]
|
The late Jessica Mitford (whom, in 1967, I was fortunate to meet in her Oakland hills home when her husband, Robert Treuhaft, was my attorney), wrote a book on the subject of the funeral industry's abuses, The American Way of Death.
That book got people thinking. But I feel that people are still systematically preyed upon by the funeral industry in their time of crisis. I wish that funerals, if held at all, would be greatly reduced, especially in terms of expense, so that they become useful rites of passage for the sake of the living.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 02:43:25 [Permalink]
|
| Mooner, thanks for posting about Mitford's book. I think that is what I was looking for all along - something to more objectively substantiate and specifically illuminate on the dark side of the funeral industry in America. I hadn't known about it (before my time) but I wonder how much an influence she had on the steadily declining cost of funerals and simplification of the way Americans tend to honor their deceased. I especially enjoyed reading the Salon article of the updated version http://www.salon.com/books/sneaks/1998/07/29sneaks.html and I've put the book on my amazon wish list. Again, thanks. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 04:16:36 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Mooner, thanks for posting about Mitford's book. I think that is what I was looking for all along - something to more objectively substantiate and specifically illuminate on the dark side of the funeral industry in America. I hadn't known about it (before my time) but I wonder how much an influence she had on the steadily declining cost of funerals and simplification of the way Americans tend to honor their deceased. I especially enjoyed reading the Salon article of the updated version http://www.salon.com/books/sneaks/1998/07/29sneaks.html and I've put the book on my amazon wish list. Again, thanks.
|
You're quite welcome, Marf.
I think Mitford's book had an enormous effect on people's thinking on the funeral biz, something like Rachel Carson's Silent Spring had on the use of DDT.
That's how I remember it, anyway. For instance, after TAWoD, people turned to cremation in droves, which was, in itself, a major cultural shift in a society which had previously thought of burial plots as expensive necessities, and of cremation as weird and kind of alien.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:11:28 [Permalink]
|
20/20: FUNERAL SALES TACTICS: 11/03/1995
Unfortunately this is only a link to purchase the program and not the program itself.
I saw this program back in 1995 and it left a really bad taste in my mouth. They used hidden cameras to show the tactics these funeral homes were using and it was disgusting. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:24:06 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by astropin
20/20: FUNERAL SALES TACTICS: 11/03/1995
Unfortunately this is only a link to purchase the program and not the program itself.
I saw this program back in 1995 and it left a really bad taste in my mouth. They used hidden cameras to show the tactics these funeral homes were using and it was disgusting.
|
Here is another story
and a bunch more
|
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 12:48:35 [Permalink]
|
Asked by Astropin1)What to you think about funerals in general?
2)What to you think about the funeral industry in America? |
1. Funerals are symptomatic of the same ignorance, superstition and irrational beliefs and behavior that most religious belief and behavior demonstrates. As man slowly evolves from Homo Sapiens into Homo Superens; hopefully this ignorance will be replaced by reasoned thinking and behavior. As the other primates evolve into eventual Homo status, I feel that evolving Homo S. will benefit from improved neurological wiring and lose most of the emotion-driven thinking that dictates so much of current mankind's activities.
2. The funeral industry in America is largely a clever exploitation of the irrational behavior noted above. It's similar to the shoe industry, bottled water, fast food, vitamins, homeopathic medicine, the hunting industry, Republican politics, etc. Marf could name a thousand irrationalities of today's consumer-culture Americans, and I would agree with most of them.
But that is where we are today in our American manifestation of civilization, and frankly, it is pretty primitive. If we survive our own brutality (and the meteors, comets, Yellowstone volcanoes, etc.), the best is yet to come! |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Your thoughts on funerals
