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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/31/2009 : 17:54:00
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* Clip * Kansas Congresswoman Lynn "Where the white folks at?" Jenkins gave MSNBC's hyperbolic liberal Keith Olbermann ammunition with her 1900s-era call for a "great white hope" to defeat African-American World Heavyweight Champion Jack Johnson. Oh, wait, she was talking about President Barack Obama -- a century later.
Anyway, Olbermann wasn't satisfied with Jenkins' apology. Let it rip, Keith.
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Way to go back 100 years, Congressclone!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/31/2009 17:54:34
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 19:34:55 [Permalink]
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Wow. You know, I didn't know the origin of the phrase "great white hope" until watching that segment with Keith Obermann, but I at least knew it to be racist. Is there any evidence that the phrase appears in context other than those which refer to race?
I usually like to attribute actions to stupidity before malice, but in this case I have a really hard time believing that Jenkins didn't know the racial connotation of the phrase and just happened to be using it during the presidency of the first African American.
And even if she isn't a liar - which I'm rather convinced she is - the apology was friggin' lame. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/31/2009 19:35:38 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 20:47:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Wow. You know, I didn't know the origin of the phrase "great white hope" until watching that segment with Keith Obermann, but I at least knew it to be racist. Is there any evidence that the phrase appears in context other than those which refer to race?
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Well gosh. I'm going on sixty now, and in all of my life so far, I have never heard the term used in anything other than a racial context. Never. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 22:32:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by marfknox
Wow. You know, I didn't know the origin of the phrase "great white hope" until watching that segment with Keith Obermann, but I at least knew it to be racist. Is there any evidence that the phrase appears in context other than those which refer to race?
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Well gosh. I'm going on sixty now, and in all of my life so far, I have never heard the term used in anything other than a racial context. Never.
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I'm 64, and have only heard it in a racial context.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 02:12:29 [Permalink]
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It originated in a racial context at a time when such things were common. Or at least commoner and a lot more public, mainly due to segregation.
The laws have changed, but little else.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 04:07:46 [Permalink]
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I was unaware of the origin and meaning of the phrase until seeing this thread.
There was a song by Styx called "Great White Hope" from "Pieces of Eight" (1978). I wonder if Styx meant anything overtly racist with that song. I shall have to look more closely at the song and the album.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2009 : 04:55:19 [Permalink]
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Heh, open mouth, insert foot, close mouth, chew vigorously.
The "Great, White Hope" canard was somewhat bandied about when Joe Lewis was champ as well. I can, vaguely, recall hearing it as a child.
I suspect that Ms. Jenkins didn't know the origin of the term, which makes her statement even worse.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/01/2009 04:56:37 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 05:52:48 [Permalink]
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I've found that there are a variety of racial slurs which are so common that white people usually don't give them a second thought. Cottonpickin' is my biggest pet peeve as it doesnt take much thought to figure out where that came from and I know many people who use that term everyday oblivious to its possibly insulting origins. Indian Summer is just one of many 'indian' sayings all of which refer to indian giving meaning something which is false or not genuine.
The great white hope is so painfully obvious that one should be able to figure out it's general conotation even without ever hearing about Jack Johnson. P.S. Make sure to catch the PBS documentary called Unforgivable Blackness about JJ, really great stuff. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 06:19:14 [Permalink]
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BPS wrote: | The great white hope is so painfully obvious that one should be able to figure out it's general conotation even without ever hearing about Jack Johnson. P.S. Make sure to catch the PBS documentary called Unforgivable Blackness about JJ, really great stuff. |
It occurs to me that the only way she didn't know the phrase's racist meaning would be if:
1. She'd heard the phrase spoken before and was too naive and thick-headed to figure out the meaning from the context in which it was said. (If this is the case, she should be truly embarassed by both her stupidity and the racist company she's been keeping.)
2. She somehow coincidencially invented the phrase not realizing that it already existed and was racist in meaning. (This, of course, is incredibly unlikely.) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/01/2009 06:20:03 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 06:43:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I've found that there are a variety of racial slurs which are so common that white people usually don't give them a second thought. Cottonpickin' is my biggest pet peeve as it doesnt take much thought to figure out where that came from and I know many people who use that term everyday oblivious to its possibly insulting origins. Indian Summer is just one of many 'indian' sayings all of which refer to indian giving meaning something which is false or not genuine.
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Gypped is another one of those. And similarly I jewed someone down seems obvious enough. I have heard it from people who I know were not antisemitic. It's just so much a part of the vernacular that it's not given any thought.
I suspect Indian giver actually refers to the way native Americans were routinely lied to by our government over treaties. It may have morphed into a slur against native Americans, but doubt that was the original intent. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 07:03:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
There was a song by Styx called "Great White Hope" from "Pieces of Eight" (1978). I wonder if Styx meant anything overtly racist with that song. I shall have to look more closely at the song and the album. |
The Styx song is about boxing, which is where the phrase originates in all its racial glory. Looks like James Young was going for a "burden of being champ" angle with the song, which is really quite wrong. James Jeffries said wonderful things like, "I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro." Jeffries lost, natch.
Edited to add that according to Wikipedia:The theme of the [Styx] album... was about "not giving up your dreams just for the pursuit of money and material possessions". So yeah, using the phrase "the Great White Hope" in that context was thoroughly misguided. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 07:07:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I suspect Indian giver actually refers to the way native Americans were routinely lied to by our government over treaties. It may have morphed into a slur against native Americans, but doubt that was the original intent. |
Your suspicions seem to be entirely wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 07:09:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
BPS wrote: | The great white hope is so painfully obvious that one should be able to figure out it's general conotation even without ever hearing about Jack Johnson. P.S. Make sure to catch the PBS documentary called Unforgivable Blackness about JJ, really great stuff. |
It occurs to me that the only way she didn't know the phrase's racist meaning would be if:
1. She'd heard the phrase spoken before and was too naive and thick-headed to figure out the meaning from the context in which it was said. (If this is the case, she should be truly embarassed by both her stupidity and the racist company she's been keeping.)
2. She somehow coincidencially invented the phrase not realizing that it already existed and was racist in meaning. (This, of course, is incredibly unlikely.)
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I've never heard the term used out of context, that is in reference to stopping/defeating a black person in something. Either way she is a dumbass for saying it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 08:40:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
I suspect Indian giver actually refers to the way native Americans were routinely lied to by our government over treaties. It may have morphed into a slur against native Americans, but doubt that was the original intent. |
Your suspicions seem to be entirely wrong.
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Hmmmm. I stand corrected. Perhaps I should have looked it up. But that's how I took it to mean. I guess I'm just too PC. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 09:24:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
I suspect Indian giver actually refers to the way native Americans were routinely lied to by our government over treaties. It may have morphed into a slur against native Americans, but doubt that was the original intent. |
Your suspicions seem to be entirely wrong.
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Hmmmm. I stand corrected. Perhaps I should have looked it up. But that's how I took it to mean. I guess I'm just too PC.
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Seems that slander came from pissed off Europeans, due to a cultural misunderstanding of Indian ways.
Indians apparently traded by "gifts," with the unstated understanding they'd receive the same value in return. That was probably a way of reinforcing good feelings between de facto trading partners, with both sides using the fiction not to appear too greedy. Europeans traded formally as such. They had a much more mercantile economy, where trade was simply considered trade and haggling was a commonplace artform.
Another misunderstanding was the Whites' buying of land from the tribes. The Indians didn't conceive that the land itself could be owned forevermore by anyone. When they sold Manhattan, they probably thought they were leasing hunting and growing rights to the island for a season or two.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 13:07:32 [Permalink]
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And the beat from this Republican skank goes on.
Link
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Congresswoman calls for a GOP "Great White Hope"
