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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2009 :  06:00:04  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't a clue what's going on here (except to state I didn't Photoshop this thing):




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2009 :  08:11:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PZ's take on this.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2009 :  11:28:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote


I saw this. It is part of a meal that has 'burst forth,' as it were. Note the bulge in the snake's body ahead and behind what is obviously a lizard's forelimb. If it were actually growing from the snake, it would turned 'round the other way. The snake swallowed the lizard head first.

This sort of thing is rare, but not unknown. I do not think that it is a jiggered-up picture and I'm certain that, at this point, the snake is dead. I am not familiar with the snake's species but it is probably non-venomous.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  12:01:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was a picture once (I think even here on SFN, but I'm too lazy to look it up) of a python released in Everglades, which strangled an alligator until it passed out. Thinking the 'gator was dead it started swallowing it. Then the 'gator woke up and started clawing itself out of the belly of the snake. Unfortunately, it couldn't get the snout out of the snake belly and suffocated.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  12:41:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a copy, Mab.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  15:42:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy



I saw this. It is part of a meal that has 'burst forth,' as it were. Note the bulge in the snake's body ahead and behind what is obviously a lizard's forelimb. If it were actually growing from the snake, it would turned 'round the other way. The snake swallowed the lizard head first.

This sort of thing is rare, but not unknown. I do not think that it is a jiggered-up picture and I'm certain that, at this point, the snake is dead. I am not familiar with the snake's species but it is probably non-venomous.




So PZ made up some big long pile of drivil about evolving legs when it is really just a lizard leg left over from dinner?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 09/20/2009 20:24:55
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  16:19:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ImBILLcile: PZ was using the opportunity to write about a well known and well documented fact, one that is incredibly interesting to the intelligent people who read his blog. He also openly stated that it was more likely just a snake-snack gone wrong and also included the evaluation of other scientists who think it is a snake who was overly ambitious.

Get a grip.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  16:58:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude


ImBILLcile: PZ was using the opportunity to write about a well known and well documented fact, one that is incredibly interesting to the intelligent people who read his blog.

No, he claimed the snake in the picture had a leg. The first sentence from his blog reads:

Look at the interesting snake found in China it's got a leg.

He then goes on rambiling about how he thinks it got there:

What most likely happened here is that some environmental agent suppressed the suppressor,

Blah, blah, blah etc..The link he offers up also claims this is the snakes leg.

He also openly stated that it was more likely just a snake-snack gone wrong and also included the evaluation of other scientists who think it is a snake who was overly ambitious.

The article I read said:

Some good suggestions from the comments: it may not even be a teratogenic deformity

It says nothing about scientists but leaves us with the notion that PZ thinks this is the snakes leg while some in the comments section say it was just the snakes lunch.

Get a grip.

Either Filthy is full of smoke or PZ is. I say PZ is.






"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  16:58:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott
So PZ made up some big long pile of drival about evolving legs...
No, Bill. Drivel would be talking snakes.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  17:35:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Either Filthy is full of smoke or PZ is. I say PZ is.
Not really. Like all good scientists PZ is willing to change his mind when a more reasonable argument/explanation was made. That's the beauty of science and scientists. And why it is still the best way to know.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  17:47:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Billy, if you had a clue, this wouldn't be necessary...

One of the first few commenters (#4) is a guy named Jerry Conye. Go, use google, enlighten yourself.

Pleitropy is also not soemthing PZ "made up". Honestly, it must hurt to be as ignorant as you appear to be.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  17:59:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

Originally posted by Bill scott

Either Filthy is full of smoke or PZ is. I say PZ is.
Not really. Like all good scientists PZ is willing to change his mind when a more reasonable argument/explanation was made. That's the beauty of science and scientists. And why it is still the best way to know.



But PZ is so confident in his conclusion only to be completely wrong. Meanwhile we got people out there passing this thing off as a snake leg because PZ said so. How many other wild stories must PZ have no clue about what he is talking about? Until it is proven wrong people just take PZ and his snake legs as gospel. And either filthy is full of it or PZ is. I say PZ is.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 09/20/2009 20:26:47
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  18:04:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Billy, if you had a clue, this wouldn't be necessary...

One of the first few commenters (#4) is a guy named Jerry Conye. Go, use google, enlighten yourself.

Pleitropy is also not soemthing PZ "made up". Honestly, it must hurt to be as ignorant as you appear to be.




Even if #4 is Jerry Conye don't change the fact that either Flithy is dead wrong or PZ is. I say it is PZ.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  18:09:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Meanwhile we got people out there passing this thing off as a snake leg because PZ said so.
Do you have any evidence for that? I saw the snake-with-a-leg story before PZ mentioned it.
How may other wild stories must PZ have no clue about what he is talking about?
Fewer than you, Mr. Mainstream-media-is-silent-about-ACORN.
Until it is proven wrong people just take PZ and his snake legs as gospel.
Bearing false witness. Hey, how is it again that Jesus will defend your lying, but not murder?
And either filthy is full of it or PZ is. I say PZ is.
How could PZ be full of it when he wants to see an autopsy?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  20:01:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But PZ is so confident in his conclusion only to be completely wrong.


Bill, PZ said:

What most likely happened here is that


This is not a phrase that comes from a man speaking dogmatically. The only one confident in their conclusions here is you.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2009 :  20:24:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.



Originally posted by Bill scott

Meanwhile we got people out there passing this thing off as a snake leg because PZ said so.


Do you have any evidence for that? I saw the snake-with-a-leg story before PZ mentioned it.


But you choose to link PZ so who cares where you went first.

How may other wild stories must PZ have no clue about what he is talking about?


Fewer than you, Mr. Mainstream-media-is-silent-about-ACORN.


Has nothing at all to do with the fact that the great PZ just tried to ram a bunch of nonsense down his followers throat that was not true at all.

Until it is proven wrong people just take PZ and his snake legs as gospel.


Bearing false witness. Hey, how is it again that Jesus will defend your lying, but not murder?


Until he is proven wrong PZ himself declares it is a snake leg. Not could be a snake leg, but is a snake leg. It is not.

And either filthy is full of it or PZ is. I say PZ is.


How could PZ be full of it when he wants to see an autopsy?


He will not back down from his claim that this is a snake leg until he sees an autopsy.


From his blog:

Look at the interesting snake found in China; it's got a leg.


Yep, he thinks it is a snake leg. No maybe a snake leg or could be a snake leg, nor does he say the snake has eaten a leg. He says the snake has a leg.

How can this happen? Genes are pleiotropic ?they tend to have lots of different functions. The genes involved in making a limb are also expressed in other places; for instance, the Hox genes that specify identity along the length of the body are also reused in specifying identity along the length of the limb. What that means is that when the snake evolved limblessness, it didn't do so by simply throwing away a collection of leg genes ?it couldn't, not without also destroying genes that functioned in generating its body plan. Instead, it evolved genes or modified the regulation of genes to actively suppress limb development?ut the genes to build a limb are still in the genome, and still functional, and still actively working in other ways.

What most likely happened here is that some environmental agent suppressed the suppressor, allowing the old developmental program for a limb to be re-expressed. The retention of such programs is, of course, evidence that this animal evolved from limbed ancestors.


Here he rambles on about how he believes the leg may have appeared completely oblivious to the fact that his conclusion that it is a snake leg is completely wrong.

It would be interesting to know what triggered this change. It's not likely to be genetic (the asymmetry suggests that), but is probably a consequence of some pollutants that disrupt development. It's not a good sign, anyway.


Here he is blaming the snake leg on global warming/climate change brought on by the evils of capitalism and Fox News.

Some good suggestions from the comments: it may not even be a teratogenic deformity. It could just be a poor lizard that punched a claw through the abdominal wall as it was being digested, and the snake was briefly trundling about in pain from the injury.


Here is where PZ comes face to face to with his whopper when those who have posted comments point out to PZ that this is just a leg from a meal that the snake has ate.

We need to do a dissection!


Here is PZ reaffirming that until he is proved wrong it is a snake leg, because after all he is, well, he is PZ.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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