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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  21:59:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Kil

"Deluded"? "Faitheist?" Come on. What the hell is a ""faitheist" anyway? Oh yeah. The contest winner... Sigh.
Your point?
Actually, Kurtz appears to have been trying to give respect to the people (humanism and all that), rather than the beliefs they hold dear. He wanted to everyone to be nice to the religious people, not necessarily their religions. So "faitheist" doesn't seem to apply to him at all.

One commenter somewhere (in one of the threads I linked to, I'm being lazy) said that Kurtz' Free Inquiry magazine makes no bones about being anti-religion, and that's what makes it so much better than The Humanist, which apparently panders. Or so the commenter says. I've never read an issue of either, so I can't say for sure.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  23:29:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil said:
If you'll notice, I didn't jump on Dude for speculating that it might have been Kurtz "accommodationism."

Being the "dogmatic cunt" that I am, I was very clear that I was guessing, and I provided a link to the article/interview that suggested his accomodationism was the reason he was kicked out.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  23:44:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, this "dogmatic cunt" would like to know upon what Kurtz bases his speculation that the New Atheists will "do more harm than good".

It seems to me that is only true if your goal is to make friends with religious dogmatists.

I don't, and I don't think the goal of any skeptical organization that takes on religious claims should be to make friends with religious people. The goal should be to demonstrate that they are in error and to do it as simply and publicly as possible.

Lets face it, Kurtz had his shot at this and his "friendly" approach failed.

I admire him and his accomplishments in other areas though (he has worked long and hard for the cause of skepticism), right up to the point where he calls me a "fundamentalist atheist". At that precise moment he can kiss my ass along with all the religious fundies who hate us mean old atheists.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  00:10:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude:
It seems to me that is only true if your goal is to make friends with religious dogmatists.


So, it seems to not have occurred to Dude or Mooner that not liking the approach of "New Atheists" does not necessarily default to "accommodationism." So, if you are an atheist you just must be one or the other. Is that it? And yet, as I pointed out, Kurtz published God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist by Victor Stenger. Why would an accomodationist publish a book like that?

Just ignore Dave's last post. Keep it simple, eh guys? It's easier that way...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  00:40:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Kil

"Deluded"? "Faitheist?" Come on. What the hell is a ""faitheist" anyway? Oh yeah. The contest winner... Sigh.
Your point?
Actually, Kurtz appears to have been trying to give respect to the people (humanism and all that), rather than the beliefs they hold dear. He wanted to everyone to be nice to the religious people, not necessarily their religions. So "faitheist" doesn't seem to apply to him at all.

One commenter somewhere (in one of the threads I linked to, I'm being lazy) said that Kurtz' Free Inquiry magazine makes no bones about being anti-religion, and that's what makes it so much better than The Humanist, which apparently panders. Or so the commenter says. I've never read an issue of either, so I can't say for sure.
I'm all for "Love the worshipper, hate the worship." That doesn't mean I always respect the worshipper, though. And hating them is a perfectly fair position. Being an asshole is irrelevant to being right or wrong. (I hope.)

I'll withdraw all my slanderous name-calling. I felt personally stung by Kurtz's use of "fundamentalist atheist," which is itself slanderous name-calling that is directed at me (though Kurtz wouldn't know me from Adam) as well as the New Atheists likes of PZ, Coyne, Dawkins, and Co. As demonstrated by my use of overblown hyperbole, I'm an asshole who shouldn't be the head of a major atheist organization. Neither should Kurtz, for the same reason.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/22/2009 00:42:30
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  00:56:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Dude:
It seems to me that is only true if your goal is to make friends with religious dogmatists.


So, it seems to not have occurred to Dude or Mooner that not liking the approach of "New Atheists" does not necessarily default to "accommodationism." So, if you are an atheist you just must be one or the other. Is that it? And yet, as I pointed out, Kurtz published God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist by Victor Stenger. Why would an accomodationist publish a book like that?

Just ignore Dave's last post. Keep it simple, eh guys? It's easier that way...



Ok, lets look at what Dave_W said:
Actually, Kurtz appears to have been trying to give respect to the people (humanism and all that), rather than the beliefs they hold dear. He wanted to everyone to be nice to the religious people, not necessarily their religions.

Those two things are, I think, mutually exclusive. How can you be nice to a religious person while you are ripping their deeply held beliefs to shreds?

Hello religious person, you are completely wrong about -insert whatever here- (origins, the existance of your deity, morality, and so on and so on), but I think you are a nice person!

Are they going to be your friend? I don't think so.

No matter how you say it, how you phrase it, when you tell a person that some belief they have held all their life is not true you are going to generate conflict.

In my experience friendly rational debate has never changed the mind of a true believer. I'm not sure that the more confrontational approach will either, but I am somewhat confident that the confrontational approach gets a bigger aiduence (the Jerry Springer effect) and that the fence sitters and those who haven't given it much though (our actual target audience) are more likely to pay attention.

Kurtz has stated that he dislikes the new atheists and his comments indicate he has a low opinion of them. His "lets all be friends" approach may not be accomodationism, but if it isn't then I don't know what to call it.

So back at ya.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 10/22/2009 01:00:08
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  00:57:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Dude:
It seems to me that is only true if your goal is to make friends with religious dogmatists.


So, it seems to not have occurred to Dude or Mooner that not liking the approach of "New Atheists" does not necessarily default to "accommodationism."
Not necessarily, perhaps, but the two main threads of atheism that are duking it out right now are the so-called "accomodationists" and the so-called "New Atheists." Since Kurtz is attacking the second group from the same direction as the accomodationists do, I strongly surmise he's one of them, too.
So, if you are an atheist you just must be one or the other. Is that it?
No.
And yet, as I pointed out, Kurtz published God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist by Victor Stenger. Why would an accomodationist publish a book like that?
Do people change? (See Antony Flew.)
Just ignore Dave's last post. Keep it simple, eh guys? It's easier that way...

Sometimes simplicity is good, especially when key issues are obscured in a debate. I note again that Kurtz was head of CSI and yet considers the most influential atheists of this century to be "fundamentalist atheists." Those two things are in conflict.

It's that "simple." Whatever genuinely wonderful things Kurtz has done in the past, it seems he has become a divisive figure now.

(And why the Hell are the tender feelings of the religious always considered so important by accomodationist hypocrites who think nothing of insulting those who are more forthright atheists than they are?)

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/22/2009 01:04:06
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2562 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  05:41:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kurtz has stated that he dislikes the new atheists and his comments indicate he has a low opinion of them. His "lets all be friends" approach may not be accomodationism, but if it isn't then I don't know what to call it.


I would figure that "accomodationism" would involve giving in to them in some respect, as opposed to just breaking it gently to them when you're telling them that they're full of it.


HalfMooner:

It's that "simple." Whatever genuinely wonderful things Kurtz has done in the past, it seems he has become a divisive figure now.

(And why the Hell are the tender feelings of the religious always considered so important by accomodationist hypocrites who think nothing of insulting those who are more forthright atheists than they are?)


To me, it depends on how the person you're arguing with is acting like. You can tell them that what they believe in is wrong, and they will hate you for it, but if you don't start off being an ass, they will at least have less ammunition to use to convince the "fence-sitters" that atheists are "immoral", "bitter", "angry", etc.


Ricky:

Perhaps what he meant is that the New Atheists were mean spirited like fundamentalists, and they go over the line in various ways. But this is not the central defining characteristic of fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are dogmatic in their views, ignoring reason and logic. To say that this describes the New Atheists is just wrong.

I agree. I think Kurtz is off-base by calling people that. What's worse, is that he's using a word that the religious fundies have invented against us in the first place.

Everyone makes mistakes, and despite all the good that Kurtz has done, I think that running around calling people "fundamentalist atheists" is a huge one. Were I him; I'd have just said that, like some religious people, some atheists are nicer than others, and then said: "So what"?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 10/22/2009 05:42:49
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  05:54:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Those two things are, I think, mutually exclusive. How can you be nice to a religious person while you are ripping their deeply held beliefs to shreds?

Hello religious person, you are completely wrong about -insert whatever here- (origins, the existance of your deity, morality, and so on and so on), but I think you are a nice person!

Are they going to be your friend? I don't think so.
Interestingly, R. Joseph Hoffman wrote:
The ideologically confused opposition to religious fundamentalism that had driven secular humanism through much of [Kurtz'] career was finding fewer targets. Not only was Christianity not going away, it was proving remarkably able to adapt–better even than social theorists like Peter Berger had prophesied. The idea that the world was “going” secular had failed to take into account religion’s unique ability to go humanistic. What was left to attack were the yahoos and nut cases who hardly required the resources of a New Enlightenment (Kurtz’s final attempt to define what it was secular humanism represented) to make them look foolish.
This suggests to me that Kurtz wasn't attacking everyone's deeply held beliefs, but restricting himself to confronting only the more overtly anti-science dogma. And as religions changed to conflict less with science, Kurtz found himself with fewer targets.

Compare and contrast this with the fact that Kurtz was behind the name-change from CSICOP to just CSI, because he felt that CSICOP as a descriptor left religion off the table as a target of inquiry.

Hoffman also says of Kurtz:
He was not a scientist, but he found science a way of "affirming" and demythologizing a world made (he thought) sick by religion.
And:
Kurtz thought he had discovered a way around, or perhaps above disappointment in the movement he called "secular humanism." This was not the soft humanism of the intellectually uncomfortable but an active, largely atheistic and stubbornly American version of humanism that placed science and reason–words that became definitive for his cause–at the center of humanist discussion. Many found it abrasive and out of step with the kinder, gentler humanism that ethical culturalists and Unitarians tried to purvey. But Kurtz was never an inclusivist: humanism was secular or it was undeserving of the name. He made enemies far more easily than he made friends.
Hoffman also suggests that Kurtz' enmity for the "New Atheists" is due to their publishing success outside of Prometheus Books, which (Hoffman says) Kurtz took as a personal affront.

Of course, other people who know Kurtz seem to find Hoffman's "living obituary" very much wrong. Rather than simplifying, as Kil suggested, I think we'll have to acknowledge the vast complexities of Kurtz' life and views. Calling him an accomodationist may be over-simplifying the situation.

But, without being a mind-reader, it's hard to tell.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  09:59:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sure. I was only speculating on the reason why he was kicked out of CSI. If not accomodationism, then maybe it was his harshly negative view of the new atheists, or maybe it was a purely financially motivated event. Given his outspokeness you'd think he would have no problem saying he was kicked out because the board didn't want to follow his business plan though.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  10:21:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
Rather than simplifying, as Kil suggested, I think we'll have to acknowledge the vast complexities of Kurtz' life and views. Calling him an accomodationist may be over-simplifying the situation.


Actually, I was suggesting that calling Kurtz an accomodationist is over simplifying. Perhaps my sarcasm was not helpful in making myself clear. Again, I think Kurtz objection to "New Atheism," whatever his motivation is, does not default to accomodationism. Being polite to people of faith, not because they are people of faith but because they are people, and bending over to make room for their views, and respecting their views, is not the same thing.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  10:31:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude:
Those two things are, I think, mutually exclusive. How can you be nice to a religious person while you are ripping their deeply held beliefs to shreds?

Ask my fundamentalist friend, Jim. I have told him many times that religion, including his, is crap. And I have told him why I think that. He knows I an active secularist and an atheist. He thinks I'm going to hell. But we are still good friends. We have much more than our disagreement in common.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  10:57:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Dude:
Those two things are, I think, mutually exclusive. How can you be nice to a religious person while you are ripping their deeply held beliefs to shreds?

Ask my fundamentalist friend, Jim. I have told him many times that religion, including his, is crap. And I have told him why I think that. He knows I an active secularist and an atheist. He thinks I'm going to hell. But we are still good friends. We have much more than our disagreement in common.

I'm sure we all know one or two people like that, but the annecdote doesn't accurately depict the general view.

Do you honestly think your friend is representative of the majority of religious people?

If so, I don't think you are on the same planet I'm on.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  11:21:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Originally posted by Kil

Dude:
Those two things are, I think, mutually exclusive. How can you be nice to a religious person while you are ripping their deeply held beliefs to shreds?

Ask my fundamentalist friend, Jim. I have told him many times that religion, including his, is crap. And I have told him why I think that. He knows I an active secularist and an atheist. He thinks I'm going to hell. But we are still good friends. We have much more than our disagreement in common.

I'm sure we all know one or two people like that, but the annecdote doesn't accurately depict the general view.

Do you honestly think your friend is representative of the majority of religious people?

If so, I don't think you are on the same planet I'm on.



You asked the question and I answered it. You used the word "person" so my reply was inline with your question.

Perhaps you should have phrased your question better?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  13:38:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Sure. I was only speculating on the reason why he was kicked out of CSI. If not accomodationism, then maybe it was his harshly negative view of the new atheists, or maybe it was a purely financially motivated event. Given his outspokeness you'd think he would have no problem saying he was kicked out because the board didn't want to follow his business plan though.
Well, Lindsay was clear that the board wanted a different management structure than Kurtz. And I haven't seen anything which suggests that Lindsay is wrong about that, especially since Kurtz recommended him for the CEO job.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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