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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2009 : 23:35:37
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Here's CNN's report from 1 hr ago
Who'd have thought they'd finally pull it off? Now, on to the Senate. Don't hold your breath for the vituperation to die down any time soon. Can't wait to see Fox "News" coverage of this, hah.
Edited to add: In a concession to the Blue Dog democrats, the bill prohibits coverage of abortion services in any case in which federal funds are used (people who can only afford to buy their mandated insurance coverage with use of federal subsidies, and people covered by the public option). Will the US start seeing women harmed & dying from illegal abortions again?
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
Edited by - Zebra on 11/07/2009 23:40:57
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 03:33:44 [Permalink]
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Zebra asked:
Edited to add: In a concession to the Blue Dog democrats, the bill prohibits coverage of abortion services in any case in which federal funds are used (people who can only afford to buy their mandated insurance coverage with use of federal subsidies, and people covered by the public option). Will the US start seeing women harmed & dying from illegal abortions again?
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Seems unlikely. The government doesn't pay for them now (do we? News to me if we do), and a lot of private insurance does not pay for elective procedures.
The whole abortion thing here is a non issues really, it exists only for political points.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 04:09:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Zebra asked:
Edited to add: In a concession to the Blue Dog democrats, the bill prohibits coverage of abortion services in any case in which federal funds are used (people who can only afford to buy their mandated insurance coverage with use of federal subsidies, and people covered by the public option). Will the US start seeing women harmed & dying from illegal abortions again?
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Seems unlikely. The government doesn't pay for them now (do we? News to me if we do), and a lot of private insurance does not pay for elective procedures.
The whole abortion thing here is a non issues really, it exists only for political points.
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I don't think the govt. pays for any, but don't know for sure. Who knows what the bill will look like when/if it clears the Senate.
I have a question: Evidently, Congresstrollope Michele Bachmann spent most of her day outside presiding over a vigorous teabagging on the front steps. I presume she got her vote in, but did she even attend the session and participate in it's discussion at all? If I am not mistaken, that, not rabble-rousing, is in her job description.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2009 : 08:02:43 [Permalink]
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Just to add another opinion:
Link
This guy claims that President Obama bribed the AMA and AARP to support his health care initiative. I haven't yet checked his facts, but it seems a little fishy to me.... |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2009 : 12:40:02 [Permalink]
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Twisted Knickers Cut Off blood to the Brain!
Well, if your brain happens to be occupying space in your ass, it is certainly possible, and indeed, might be the explanation for this stupidity: GOP Rep.: ‘Democratic bill requires the government to encourage suicide’
By Diana Sweet
Saturday, November 7th, 2009 -- 11:29 pm
With today's much anticipated vote on the House health care bill, liberal blogger-political activist Mike Stark decided to speak with a few Republican members of Congress as they made their way around the Hill today for a last minute anti-healthcare reform rally.
"I wanted to know how many of them knew – at this late juncture – how many of their constituents lacked insurance," reported from his website. "Not one Republican could give me an answer. Quite a few, however, served up some entertainment."
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The "entertainment" ain't all that funny. Ass-intellects: teabaggers, birthers, Republican fatheads and the like, actually believe their foolishness, even as they make it all up.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 14:18:18 [Permalink]
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Abortion is mostly a non-issue for me. Women who live in places where they have easy access to abortion services are typically able to get an abortion even if they are financially very limited. There are private subsidies and from the women I know who've had abortions, it only costs about $300.00 - so not the sort of procedure which is going to put someone is debt for several years or cause them to go bankrupt.
The real issue with health care is people who can't get affordable insurance or who have insurance but still can't afford the co-pays when they need to use their coverage. Hopefully this bill will help get some of the people who aren't currently covered, although it is so watered down that there will still be many people who fall through the cracks in an insanely over-complicated system. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 11/08/2009 14:18:49 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 14:20:14 [Permalink]
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This discussion of the potential effect on abortion coverage is from Huffington Post, so I'd like to confirm it w/ another source, but here goes (bolding added): Companies selling insurance policies covering abortions would be required to offer identical policies without the abortion coverage.
Abortion-rights supporters say private insurers will not likely offer policies with abortion coverage in the exchange because many potential buyers will be getting federal subsidies and therefore wouldn't be able to purchase them.
Around 21 million people are expected to get coverage through the exchange by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The majority of Americans who get their insurance coverage from their employers would not be affected.
Abortion-rights supporters say the restrictions in the amendment go further than current law.
A law called the Hyde amendment – which must be renewed annually – bars federal funding for abortion except in cases of rape, incest or if the mother's life is in danger. The restrictions apply to Medicaid, forcing states that cover abortions for low-income women to pay for them with state revenues. Separate laws apply the restrictions to the federal employee health plan and the military.
Currently abortion coverage is widely available in the private market. A Guttmacher Institute study found that 87 percent of typical employer plans covered abortion in 2002. A Kaiser Family Foundation survey in 2003 found that 46 percent of workers in employer plans had abortion coverage. The studies asked different questions, which might help explain the disparity in the results.
Abortions in the first trimester typically cost between $350-$900, according to Planned Parenthood.
A health overhaul bill pending in the Senate also bars federal funding for abortion, but the language is less stringent. Discrepancies between the House and Senate measures would have to be reconciled before any final bill is passed.
(This version corrects the third paragraph to correct the description of the amendment – people getting subsidies could not buy insurance packages covering abortion, instead of people could not get subsidies to buy abortion coverage.) |
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 15:50:54 [Permalink]
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The big victory of the House bill was the inclusion of a public option, which I feel is necessary to keep insurance companies honest and competitive, as well as provide an opportunity for affordable coverage to Americans who aren't insured through their employers.
Yet passage of this bill in the Senate doesn't look promising:The problem is that the Senate won't run with it. The government health insurance plan included in the House bill is unacceptable to a few Democratic moderates who hold the balance of power in the Senate.
If a government plan is part of the deal, "as a matter of conscience, I will not allow this bill to come to a final vote," said Sen. Joe Lieberman, the Connecticut independent whose vote Democrats need to overcome GOP filibusters. |
God damned Joe Lieberman. I just knew that sniveling shit would eventually fuck over the Democrats when they needed him most. "A matter of conscience" my ass.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/08/2009 15:53:26 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 23:15:21 [Permalink]
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| Maybe they could schedule the Senate vote on the Sabbath, so Joe couldn't be there. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 08:18:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
God damned Joe Lieberman. I just knew that sniveling shit would eventually fuck over the Democrats when they needed him most. "A matter of conscience" my ass. |
Joe Lieberman, July, 2006:
| What I’m saying to the people of Connecticut, I can do more for you and your families to get something done to make health care affordable, to get universal health insurance. |
I have nothing but contempt for Joe Lieberman.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 08:43:25 [Permalink]
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What concerns me is how easily people will give up their freedom. This bill is the biggest affront to freedom since the 16th amendment. To vote to give the government the power to punish you if you do not buy what they are selling is insane. People in the US do not have the moral compass or the grit to maintain their freedom anymore. Living free takes moral character and fortitude. It’s not easy, but don’t we want to control our own lives? All people seem to want is for government to make their life easier and save the almighty dollar and they are willing to exchange freedom and liberty for it.
If health care gets signed by the President it will probably have abortion included in the coverage. I think the amendment was just a move to get the 218 votes. I hope I am wrong. Just as I don’t want my tax dollars to help kill people on death row, I don’t want my tax dollars to kill babies either.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 09:34:14 [Permalink]
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Robb:
It’s not easy, but don’t we want to control our own lives? All people seem to want is for government to make their life easier and save the almighty dollar and they are willing to exchange freedom and liberty for it. |
So, what's your solution to the health care crisis? Tough shit? One thing I hate about this country is its chock full of selfish fucks. You worry about the health of fetuses, but once born, it's okay for them to die because they lack health insurance, right? Not your problem anymore. That is the situation, isn't it? I don't get how you can worry about the unborn and not understand that health care should be a basic right and that the system we have now is murdering people for profit. There is hypocrisy in your thinking that I will never understand.
You talk about morality, but I don't see the morality in allowing people to die unnecessarily by not making health care accessible to everyone. Perhaps you need to lose your health insurance as I will as soon as my expensive cobra runs out, to understand where the blame should be placed. You are comfortable blaming the victim for lacking "moral character and fortitude" as though losing your health insurance could never happen to you. I played by the rules and I am still facing serious trouble. As it is, I am uninsurable by today's insurance company standards. But I'm sure you will be there to help me out. Right? Nope. You will be busy trying to save the unborn. Hell, those waiting for execution will have better access to health care than I will have if things don't change quickly.
What a stupid country this is.
Sigh...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 09:54:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
What a stupid country this is.
Sigh...
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I hope I'm wrong, but it appears that health care is the last thing Obama is concerned about. It appears that he's concerned about insurance company care. Wall Street care. Care for companies who ship jobs overseas. Everything but health care.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:03:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
What concerns me is how easily people will give up their freedom. This bill is the biggest affront to freedom since the 16th amendment. To vote to give the government the power to punish you if you do not buy what they are selling is insane. People in the US do not have the moral compass or the grit to maintain their freedom anymore. Living free takes moral character and fortitude. It’s not easy, but don’t we want to control our own lives? All people seem to want is for government to make their life easier and save the almighty dollar and they are willing to exchange freedom and liberty for it. |
Well, Robb, the problem is that the worst-off people have no freedom, and the young, healthy, wealthy people have so much freedom that they're simply ignoring the wise path. These bills are (or should be) designed to remove the freedom to be stupid and replace it with some freedom of choice for those who had none, and as a side-effect lower health-care costs for everyone.
When you talk of freedom, Robb, are you including the freedom to make blatantly idiotic choices which place a burden on all of society, or are you just talking about some idealistic version of freedom where everyone acts responsibly and morally?| If health care gets signed by the President it will probably have abortion included in the coverage. I think the amendment was just a move to get the 218 votes. I hope I am wrong. Just as I don’t want my tax dollars to help kill people on death row, I don’t want my tax dollars to kill babies either. |
Your tax dollars are already doing both, and this amendment won't change that fact. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:07:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
It’s not easy, but don’t we want to control our own lives? All people seem to want is for government to make their life easier and save the almighty dollar and they are willing to exchange freedom and liberty for it. |
So, what's your solution to the health care crisis? Tough shit? One thing I hate about this country is its chock full of selfish fucks. You worry about the health of fetuses, but once born, it's okay for them to die because they lack health insurance, right? Not your problem anymore. That is the situation, isn't it? I don't get how you can worry about the unborn and not understand that health care should be a basic right and that the system we have now is murdering people for profit. There is hypocrisy in your thinking that I will never understand.
You talk about morality, but I don't see the morality in allowing people to die unnecessarily by not making health care accessible to everyone. Perhaps you need to lose your health insurance as I will as soon as my expensive cobra runs out, to understand where the blame should be placed. You are comfortable blaming the victim for lacking "moral character and fortitude" as though losing your health insurance could never happen to you. I played by the rules and I am still facing serious trouble. As it is, I am uninsurable by today's insurance company standards. But I'm sure you will be there to help me out. Right? Nope. You will be busy trying to save the unborn. Hell, those waiting for execution will have better health care than I will have if things don't change.
What a stupid country this is.
Sigh...
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You assume that I have always had health insurance. You also assume that I do not want health care reform. Wrong assumptions. The issue of liberty is a deeper issue than just health care. The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. I disagree on how it should be done. Health care has to be paid for, it is not free. We should not go into deeper debt to pay for it.
How about opening the health care companies to all states.
Giving tax breaks for people that buy private insurance
Allow small buisnesses and private citizens to band together as one entity to get a better rate on their health care.
Improve health care savings accounts to encourage people to plan for the future.
Tort reform
Making sure providers cannot cancel a policy unlss there is fraud.
Let dependents stay on parents policies longer.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:35:09 [Permalink]
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Robb:
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
Oh come on Robb. What do you think taxes are? Does it piss you off that you must contribute to government mandated products? Like two wars, for example? Do you think our infrastructure is more important than health care for all? Are you willing to give up your social security or medicare? Do you know what happens if you don't pay your taxes?
There are already a lot of government mandated things that we must pay for. Why is the one that will actually lower the cost of health care, and will make it possible for millions of Americans who lack health insurance now to be covered, the one that bothers you?
Don't you think that at least one insurance company should be a not for profit company? I think all of them should be.
Let me know when you refuse to pay for registering your car in the name of freedom. (Of course, you can just stop driving it, but hey, there are public options in most cities. Buses for one.) |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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House passes health care reform bill 220-215
