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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2009 : 13:15:10 [Permalink]
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Some thoughts.
Another thought: I have had govt. sponsored health care since I was 17, first from the military, then through the VA. I have had no less than two spinal surgeries, a hip replacement, treatment for various other ailments, some serious, others not so much, and all except a small co-pay on blood pressure meds is not out of my pocket. So I must ask; why am I more worthy than anyone else? And exactly how does this affect my "freedom?"
Hell, it seems to me that it gives me more freedom because I am not tied to some gaggle of private company bureaucrats to whom company profit is more important than my health. Those greedy bastards would probably call picking up snakes a pre-existing condition and refuse me coverage.
At the moment, my health care provider is a little miffed that I refuse to get a knee replacement. Do you know what that procedure costs? I don't, but I couldn't afford it had I to pay for it.
I can get an Oxycontin prescription, for free, that would make Rush weep in junkyious envy.
I hear all these rabid blatherings about "socialized medicine" and it makes me wonder; what's wrong with that? I've been doing quite well on it for almost all of my life.
I strongly feel that everyone should have some form of the same, or at least the opportunity to sign up for it.
And the economics of it are very simple: the less money you give to corporate insurance is a little more bread in your pocket. Soon enough, that money will find it's way into the economy, rather than an overseas stash, to the benefit of all.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 13:17:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, and:Originally posted by Gorgo
The solution to both is not to push wasteful ideas like insurance, but to give people health care and public transportation. Get people from behind the wheel and from behind the insurance desk. |
So you're in favor of taking away people's freedom to drive and their freedom to sell insurance? 
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I'll take health over Robb's false freedom. I'm in favor of taking away people's right to drive if there is an alternative. I'm in favor of taking away people's right to sell insurance if there is an alternative. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 13:22:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Another thought: I have had govt. sponsored health care since I was 17, first from the military, then through the VA. I have had no less than two spinal surgeries, a hip replacement, treatment for various other ailments, some serious, others not so much, and all except a small co-pay on blood pressure meds is not out of my pocket. So I must ask; why am I more worthy than anyone else? And exactly how does this affect my "freedom?"
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I think that's the point. We need more people to volunteer to fight for the empire. Since that's the only way many young men are going to get health insurance and a decent job, we can't be giving the rest of the people any benefits. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 14:39:59 [Permalink]
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How asinine are the House Republicans? Need proof they have no interest in Democracy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMdlcnK_MI4 |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 15:47:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
Edited to add: In a concession to the Blue Dog democrats, the bill prohibits coverage of abortion services in any case in which federal funds are used (people who can only afford to buy their mandated insurance coverage with use of federal subsidies, and people covered by the public option). Will the US start seeing women harmed & dying from illegal abortions again?
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Actually, the Stupar Amendment will allow federal funds for abortions if pregnancy will cause severe health concerns for the woman , or if the preganancy is caused by rape or incest.
It does not make abortion illegal but restricts the type of abortions federal funds can be used for.
If the pro-choice wackos and the pro-life fanatics derail this step to universal care, I am moving to Sweden. |
| Edited by - Rubicon95 on 11/09/2009 15:48:47 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 15:54:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Those greedy bastards would probably call picking up snakes a pre-existing condition and refuse me coverage. |
Picking up snakes is probably best described as a lifestyle choice. Perhaps a demoniacally inspired one. Nobody was born picking up snakes -- they chose to pick them up, and can stop doing so at any time. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 17:46:43 [Permalink]
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Robb made several alternative suggestions for health care reform that I’m going to respond to: How about opening the health care companies to all states.
Giving tax breaks for people that buy private insurance
Allow small buisnesses and private citizens to band together as one entity to get a better rate on their health care.
Improve health care savings accounts to encourage people to plan for the future.
Tort reform
Making sure providers cannot cancel a policy unlss there is fraud.
Let dependents stay on parents policies longer. |
The problem I have with all of these collectively is that none would help these three friends of mine who I consider a good indication of the failings of the American health care system. All three of these friends are childless, single, between the ages of 30 and 40 with non-life-threatening and very treatable illnesses. All of three of these friends have difficulty keeping steady work because of the nature of their careers (two are artists and one works in political activism.) Their illnesses being untreated makes getting and keeping work even more difficult, but they manage to work enough to not quality for Medicaid. They all have ZERO expendable income to purchase private insurance. In fact, they often have to ask friends and family for money to pay their rent.
My point is that the problem with our system is that we have no one system and so some people have the best health care in the world while others might as well be in a third world nation. And it changes for any individual based on circumstances which are often not in their control. None of your suggestions would change that underlining problem. Then again, neither will this bill which passed. But again, all I care about it increasing the number of people who are covered and covered adequately. How we get there doesn’t matter to me so long as that is the goal.
Dude wrote: The very thought of insuring one's health is what we should all find repugnant. Healthcare should be a civil right. It should be a basic service like police, clean potable water, fire departments, and roads.
Everyone pays into the system and everyone gets to use it. You know, like medicare. |
YES! This is all the more the case because of medical advances and the cost of medical care. One person might be healthy as a horse their whole life and die of a heart attack in their sleep at a ripe, old age, while another might suffer from cancer or heart disease starting in their 40’s and have it drag on for 30 of expensive treatments. One of those people will have much higher medical expenses to deal with over their life time regardless of how hard they work, how clever they are, or how good a person they are. When poor countries become rich, they decide to provide health care for their citizens because that’s what rich countries do. When a country can afford it, universal health care is simply what is fair.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 20:45:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
This discussion of the potential effect on abortion coverage is from Huffington Post, so I'd like to confirm it w/ another source, but here goes (bolding added): Companies selling insurance policies covering abortions would be required to offer identical policies without the abortion coverage.
Abortion-rights supporters say private insurers will not likely offer policies with abortion coverage in the exchange because many potential buyers will be getting federal subsidies and therefore wouldn't be able to purchase them.
Around 21 million people are expected to get coverage through the exchange by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The majority of Americans who get their insurance coverage from their employers would not be affected.
Abortion-rights supporters say the restrictions in the amendment go further than current law.
A law called the Hyde amendment – which must be renewed annually – bars federal funding for abortion except in cases of rape, incest or if the mother's life is in danger. The restrictions apply to Medicaid, forcing states that cover abortions for low-income women to pay for them with state revenues. Separate laws apply the restrictions to the federal employee health plan and the military.
Currently abortion coverage is widely available in the private market. A Guttmacher Institute study found that 87 percent of typical employer plans covered abortion in 2002. A Kaiser Family Foundation survey in 2003 found that 46 percent of workers in employer plans had abortion coverage. The studies asked different questions, which might help explain the disparity in the results.
Abortions in the first trimester typically cost between $350-$900, according to Planned Parenthood.
A health overhaul bill pending in the Senate also bars federal funding for abortion, but the language is less stringent. Discrepancies between the House and Senate measures would have to be reconciled before any final bill is passed.
(This version corrects the third paragraph to correct the description of the amendment – people getting subsidies could not buy insurance packages covering abortion, instead of people could not get subsidies to buy abortion coverage.) |
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AP reports that the restriction expands out to forbidding the use of government assistance for premiums for a plan that offers abortion coverage. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 19:36:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
Originally posted by Zebra
Edited to add: In a concession to the Blue Dog democrats, the bill prohibits coverage of abortion services in any case in which federal funds are used (people who can only afford to buy their mandated insurance coverage with use of federal subsidies, and people covered by the public option). Will the US start seeing women harmed & dying from illegal abortions again?
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Actually, the Stupar Amendment will allow federal funds for abortions if pregnancy will cause severe health concerns for the woman , or if the preganancy is caused by rape or incest.
It does not make abortion illegal but restricts the type of abortions federal funds can be used for.
If the pro-choice wackos and the pro-life fanatics derail this step to universal care, I am moving to Sweden.
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Thanks for correcting me - I'd forgotten those generous exceptions. Interesting because health-of-the-mother was widely used as a loophole for abortion before Roe-v-Wade, in some parts of the country. (On mental health basis if nothing else.)
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 06:38:30 [Permalink]
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I believe the public option is going to be funded by those who buy into it. Granted there is going to be seed money at the start. So what is the deal with "federal funding of Abortion" talk?
To be honest I don't want my $$ to go to pay for abortions. That is just immoral. I want them to go to more worthwhile stuff like propping up petty dictators, rendition, coporate bailouts, coporate terrorism and funding "green" tech that dump waste on 3rd World countries.
Anyway that is just my view.. :-\ |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 06:55:00 [Permalink]
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Holy crap. They have taken the tactics of the August town halls to the floor of congression. Looks like Paul Krugman is right (and others before him even in this fora) that the republicans are simply making it impossible to govern. Paranoia Overtakes GOP
And if Tea Party Republicans do win big next year, what has already happened in California could happen at the national level. In California, the GOP has essentially shrunk down to a rump party with no interest in actually governing - but that rump remains big enough to prevent anyone else from dealing with the state's fiscal crisis. If this happens to America as a whole, as it all too easily could, the country could become effectively ungovernable in the midst of an ongoing economic disaster.
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edited to fix tag |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 11/11/2009 06:56:12 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/11/2009 : 07:14:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by filthy
Those greedy bastards would probably call picking up snakes a pre-existing condition and refuse me coverage. |
Picking up snakes is probably best described as a lifestyle choice. Perhaps a demoniacally inspired one. Nobody was born picking up snakes -- they chose to pick them up, and can stop doing so at any time.
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No, no; it's genetic. Whilst the scientific data is as yet incomplete, I assure you that I can't not pick up snakes. This has led to some very painful episodes that the cowardly and grasping insurance industry dosen't want to hear about.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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House passes health care reform bill 220-215
