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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  01:51:29  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html

Interesting...

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  02:33:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I saw that. Seems a little unfair, doesn't it, as a church or a cathedral a synagogue can go up anywhere.

On the other hand, all that hollering for Muslims to hit the ol' prayer rug five times a day could get very tiresome very fast. A point to take into consideration, eh?

What a nuisance religion is!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  11:06:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
On the other hand, all that hollering for Muslims to hit the ol' prayer rug five times a day could get very tiresome very fast. A point to take into consideration, eh?

Minarets in Switzerland aren't allowed to make calls for prayer as it is, anyway.

What a nuisance religion is!


Yup.

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  12:39:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hawks

Originally posted by filthy
On the other hand, all that hollering for Muslims to hit the ol' prayer rug five times a day could get very tiresome very fast. A point to take into consideration, eh?

Minarets in Switzerland aren't allowed to make calls for prayer as it is, anyway.

What a nuisance religion is!


Yup.
I didn't know that. But then, why bother with a minaret in the first place if there's no drooling madman to command the faithful to fluff Allah and Whasisface? Seems like a waste of concrete, doesn't it?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  13:26:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
I didn't know that. But then, why bother with a minaret in the first place if there's no drooling madman to command the faithful to fluff Allah and Whasisface? Seems like a waste of concrete, doesn't it?

If they allow for more minarets, they also allow for the possibility of there in the future being a drooling madman commanding the faithful.

It's in the nature of radical religionists to damand acceptance of their every whim on the basis of religious freedom, and I'm sure the Swiss realised this could happen and wanted to stop the snow ball from ever starting to roll.

I'm not opposed to letting religious people practice their religion, as long as their practice do not interfere with the lives of others. However, the very purpose of a minaret is to bother people (to pray) in the name of Islaam. So I dislike them, and congratulate the Swiss people on their controversial decision.


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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/30/2009 13:31:22
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  13:47:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by filthy
I didn't know that. But then, why bother with a minaret in the first place if there's no drooling madman to command the faithful to fluff Allah and Whasisface? Seems like a waste of concrete, doesn't it?

If they allow for more minarets, they also allow for the possibility of there in the future being a drooling madman commanding the faithful.

It's in the nature of radical religionists to damand acceptance of their every whim on the basis of religious freedom, and I'm sure the Swiss realised this could happen and wanted to stop the snow ball from ever starting to roll.

I'm not opposed to letting religious people practice their religion, as long as their practice do not interfere with the lives of others. However, the very purpose of a minaret is to bother people (to pray) in the name of Islaam. So I dislike them, and congratulate the Swiss people on their controversial decision.

Maybe it was the homoerotic architecture that influenced the decision, whaddya think?



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  14:16:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If they allow for more minarets, they also allow for the possibility of there in the future being a drooling madman commanding the faithful.

It's in the nature of radical religionists to damand acceptance of their every whim on the basis of religious freedom, and I'm sure the Swiss realised this could happen and wanted to stop the snow ball from ever starting to roll.

I'm not opposed to letting religious people practice their religion, as long as their practice do not interfere with the lives of others. However, the very purpose of a minaret is to bother people (to pray) in the name of Islaam. So I dislike them, and congratulate the Swiss people on their controversial decision.
This is one area that Americans are unlike most of Europe. I strongly adhere to the principle that people should be free to follow their consciences and practice their religion as they choose so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Discriminating against the building of minarets while allowing the construction of church steeples is unethical discrimination, plain and simple. A minaret can be seen as an advertisement for Islam, as well as a declarative symbol of belief. But I fail to see how that infringes on the rights of non-Muslims to ignore them or put up their own symbols. A secular society needs to be a free marketplace of ideas.

Fears of "drooling madmen commanding the faithful" are not sufficient to justify such discrimination. You deal with the drooling madmen as they appear, not by preemptively punishing all Muslims for simply wishing to worship in mosques. It's exactly that sort of marginalization which will further alienate and radicalize the existing law-abiding Muslim population.

Conservatives in America use exactly this type of fear mongering to justify discriminating against minority viewpoints, particularly on matters of religion. I find it deeply disturbing whenever a single religion is either shielded from criticism by a secular government, as with the Irish blasphemy laws, or singled out for legalized discrimination, as is the case here. Of course secular societies must impose some limits on religion. Radical Christians or Muslims may wish to see homosexuality punishable by death, but their religious convictions are irrelevant to whether or not government should pass laws to that effect. But when a government bans any public expression of a particular religious viewpoint, then all viewpoints become at risk. In America, some people are offended by innocuous billboards advertising atheism. They claim godlessness is being "shoved down their throats" when in fact it's the mere presence of atheism in society which they object to. I see the same bigotry here. This law was passed because some Swiss people obviously fear and hate Muslims and don't think they deserve the same protections afforded under law as other religions. It's pretty sickening. The Swiss should be ashamed for their country.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/30/2009 14:21:12
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2009 :  14:39:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He's sick of the Swiss.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2009 :  05:53:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with H.H. on this. I would be among the first in line to protect the religious freedoms of the very people who would deny me my rights as an outspoken atheist. A call to prayer by either a bell or a muezzin, from a tower called either a steeple or a minaret, are in principle identical. As long as neither tower uses excessive amplification, or is used to incite hatred, let them be.

Architecture is a stupid thing to make a political cause. But if the Swiss want to silence the muezzins in their minarets, they should also silence their cathedral and church bells. What they have instead done is discriminate against an unpopular bunch of religious idiots in favor of more popular sects of idiots.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/01/2009 06:00:42
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2009 :  07:25:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I'm with H.H. on this. I would be among the first in line to protect the religious freedoms of the very people who would deny me my rights as an outspoken atheist. A call to prayer by either a bell or a muezzin, from a tower called either a steeple or a minaret, are in principle identical. As long as neither tower uses excessive amplification, or is used to incite hatred, let them be.

Architecture is a stupid thing to make a political cause. But if the Swiss want to silence the muezzins in their minarets, they should also silence their cathedral and church bells. What they have instead done is discriminate against an unpopular bunch of religious idiots in favor of more popular sects of idiots.

Agree entirely, and I have a story to tell:

About 10 years ago, one of our local Baptist churchs got themselves an electronic set of bells and installed four big speakers on the roof next to the steeple. For a while, all went well. They would clang out a hymn or three on Sunday morning and that was about it. Nobody complained, not even I.

Of course, it couldn't last and they started doing 1/2 hour every evening. Promptly at 6:00 pm, those damnable speakers would start bonging out Onward Christian Soldiers for starters, then any of an apparently inexhaustible collection of similar stuff. That got very, very old, very fast and the complaints, mine among them, started. They were ignored and tintinnabulations continued, if anything louder than ever. Seemed that way, at least.

Then one fine Autumn evening -- I have an alibi -- three rifle shots, a .22 by the sound of them, rang out right at the beginning of the racket and the bells fell silent. They've remained silent since.

I do not know what blessed Angel of Mercy did this and wouldn't tell you if I did. We might need him again some day.

Thinking about it, it's the old "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile." Perhaps the Swiss were wise to ban minarets, evolution being what it is.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/01/2009 07:30:24
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2009 :  08:58:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert
But when a government bans any public expression of a particular religious viewpoint, then all viewpoints become at risk.

I'd like to inject a correction here. It wasn't the government that banned the minarets.
One of the parties (conservative) suggested the ban. The rest of the parties in the government said "no". The conservative party gathered 100'000 signatures needed to put the question to a national referendum.
In the referendum, 57% voted to bad the minarets. It's the "voice of the people", not government.


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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2009 :  19:09:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by filthy
I didn't know that. But then, why bother with a minaret in the first place if there's no drooling madman to command the faithful to fluff Allah and Whasisface? Seems like a waste of concrete, doesn't it?

If they allow for more minarets, they also allow for the possibility of there in the future being a drooling madman commanding the faithful.

It's in the nature of radical religionists to damand acceptance of their every whim on the basis of religious freedom, and I'm sure the Swiss realised this could happen and wanted to stop the snow ball from ever starting to roll.

I'm not opposed to letting religious people practice their religion, as long as their practice do not interfere with the lives of others. However, the very purpose of a minaret is to bother people (to pray) in the name of Islaam. So I dislike them, and congratulate the Swiss people on their controversial decision.


By the numbers, 82% of Switzerland is Christian of one denomination or another -- not sure how accurate this is. Plus, the conservative parties put this forward, it's not as if many supported the initiative in order to reduce the influence of religion (just the reduction of the influence of someone else's religion).

You're right about the decision, it was a popular referendum. The current government and parliament opposed it.

Despite my views on religion, this seems like a sort of tyranny of the majority and challenges some common ideas of human rights and freedom of religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland#Opposition

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 12/01/2009 19:13:36
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2009 :  23:27:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's the "voice of the people", not government.
Well, that's still government, in that in a democracy the people are the government. This was a government action decided on by popular vote, similar to the Proposition 8 legislation which passed in California banning gay marriage. But its still a government action, not the actions of a private company or group, and will officially become the law of the land. I hope the Swiss courts strike it down.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2009 :  02:20:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's the "voice of the people", not government.
Well, that's still government, in that in a democracy the people are the government.

A poor choice of words then. I should have said It's the "voice of the people", not parliament.

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Jayhawker Soule
New Member

21 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2009 :  05:30:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Jayhawker Soule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's the "voice of the people", not government.
Well, that's still government, in that in a democracy the people are the government.

A poor choice of words then. I should have said It's the "voice of the people", not parliament.

It is also Islamophobic bigotry.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2009 :  06:35:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's the "voice of the people", not government.
Well, that's still government, in that in a democracy the people are the government.

A poor choice of words then. I should have said It's the "voice of the people", not parliament.

It is also Islamophobic bigotry.

Perhaps I don't notice the distiction, because I may be turning religio-phobic.

But as I've mentioned before, the main purpose of a minaret is to yell out prayers, and call to them. Without a drooling religionist doing it, a minaret is just a waste of concrete.

However, if they design the minaret in such a way that prayer-calls from them become impossible, the I don't see why they cannot build them. If nothing else, pidgeons can poop on them.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

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