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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2009 : 10:12:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Gorgo.....
| ....he's using his religion to do anything but fool himself into believing that he's doing anything constructive. He may be actually avoiding doing anything constructive by doing this. |
I don't read that in VD's post. I think it's more like Bob Lloyd put it, the "Dieties" don't really exist except as a framework for him to analyze questions of right and wrong, ethical judgement and the like.
Hell, let's ask him!
Valiant, could you elaborate a little on your own personal Trinity and how you may find direction or guidance from them?
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Go easy on Val. It's embarrassing enough that we have a theist on our staff!
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 10:51:14 [Permalink]
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I think it's more like Bob Lloyd put it, the "Dieties" don't really exist except as a framework for him to analyze questions of right and wrong, ethical judgement and the like.
Hell, let's ask him!
Valiant, could you elaborate a little on your own personal Trinity and how you may find direction or guidance from them?
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I don't think you understood my point, which was about accepting anecdotal evidence. I don't think we should put Dancer on the spot, either, this is not against him. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:19:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
As you do not have the same psychological need for connectedness to the universe or ceremony (aka the dog and pony show of religious ritual), I don't think any religion really fits you.
My view of my dieties are that of a three forces. A creative force which splits itself into a male and female aspect. A destructive force with the intent of building something better. And a destructive force that exists for destruction alone. The last force is not productive or healthy and is not called upon. My deities help me focus on those aspects of myself that I am not pleased with and change them accordingly.
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No one would want to make any of that illegal, but to continue the thought, the idea that you have some psychological need might itself be a testable claim. Not that we want to quiz you here, but the idea of psychological need could mean anything from the fact that you like performing the rituals knowing that they're meaningless, to the fact that you have psychotic episodes or even die without them.
Same with the idea of the gods involved. Are these beings supernatural? Do they have some impact on the world? Etc. Are other people affected by them? What can you do with the idea of gods that you can't do without it? Again, I mean all these questions to be taken rhetorically. I'm just illustrating the point about defining what we're talking about.
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The psychological need (like most psychological needs) are subjective in nature. In this case, my belief does call for quite a bit of introspection. I like performing the particular rituals because to me they do have meaning. Albeit meaning ascribed by me. Sometimes I use the rituals to focus upon what I think I need to change. Sometimes, it is to celebrate the continuing cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
The Gods, by definition, are supernatural. They have impact only within myself and not the outside world. (Some of my fellow adherents may disagree, but it is part of the ethical portion of the religion.) The idea is that the Gods and Goddesses help in changing and focus but ultimately it is my force of will that changes my behavior. The concept is that of nuturing parents providing support and encouragement through difficult times.
Rhetorically, there is no logical reason I cannot do these myself. There is no logical reason that these supernatural forces exist. That is the blind spot that I have for religion. One that is largely harmless. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:35:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Gorgo.....
| ....he's using his religion to do anything but fool himself into believing that he's doing anything constructive. He may be actually avoiding doing anything constructive by doing this. |
I don't read that in VD's post. I think it's more like Bob Lloyd put it, the "Dieties" don't really exist except as a framework for him to analyze questions of right and wrong, ethical judgement and the like.
Hell, let's ask him!
Valiant, could you elaborate a little on your own personal Trinity and how you may find direction or guidance from them?
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The thing is that there is more than a trinity.
Introspection is most focused on during the "dark" of the year. Basically Halloween to Candlemas (31 Oct to 2 Feb) is the time of the season to take an inventory of behaviors and habits to identify which ones are healthy and should be retianed and which ones are unhealthy and should be discarded. It helps set priorities on which ones should be worked on. These are usually classified by the four elements. Air - intellect and inspiration. Fire - life and change. Water - emotion. Earth - material behaviors.
I may attribute ephiphanies which delineate my course of action to make the changes to communication with my deity. (Although, it is argueable that these are actually courses reached subconsciously.) The adherent then pulls in the energy needed from these deities to focus the effort. (Translation: focuses thought into a message sent to the subconscious to modify behavior.)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:40:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I think it's more like Bob Lloyd put it, the "Dieties" don't really exist except as a framework for him to analyze questions of right and wrong, ethical judgement and the like.
Hell, let's ask him!
Valiant, could you elaborate a little on your own personal Trinity and how you may find direction or guidance from them?
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I don't think you understood my point, which was about accepting anecdotal evidence. I don't think we should put Dancer on the spot, either, this is not against him.
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Religion really doesn't approach anecdotal evidence. It is "I believe this because it feels true to me as the concepts have been presented." In reality, no evidence has been offered anecdotal or otherwise for the existance of these deities or theological constructs. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 01:12:40 [Permalink]
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Religion really doesn't approach anecdotal evidence. It is "I believe this because it feels true to me as the concepts have been presented." In reality, no evidence has been offered anecdotal or otherwise for the existance of these deities or theological constructs.
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You have stated that you have a psychological "need." That is a statement that requires evidence. There is no reason to think you are more deficient in having a lack of supernatural beings than anyone else. Rituals are separate from supernatural beings. You like rituals, that's different than a psychological "need," and is different from a psychological need for supernatural beings.
I would be concerned more about your belief in your deficiency than your belief in the supernatural.
The following statement is a statement of fact, based solely on your subjective experience and is anecdotal:
My deities help me focus on those aspects of myself that I am not pleased with and change them accordingly.
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I have no reason to think that these deities do those things. By implication it appears that your statement is that you're better off psychologically with this religion than without it. There is no reason to think that except anecdotal evidence. It may be that you're worse off for all I know. "Feels true" is, by definition, anecdotal evidence.
Those that think you really don't believe in supernatural beings appear to be wrong. You have stated that you do. If you act as though there are supernatural beings and that you are deficient, I have no way to know if the end result of that is harmful or helpful for sure, but, and this may be my deficiency, I can't understand why it would be healthy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 01:22:50 [Permalink]
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Val.....
Have you developed this overeaching spiritual construct that organizes and defines your deistic belief system pretty much all by yourself? It appears to incorporate elements of classical Hellenic physics (Earth, Air, Fire, and Water) with certain aspects of Indian Gaudiya Vaishnava theology and that of the the Upanishads. It is quite a remarkable composite of significantly discrete belief systems.
How did you come to combine these Eastern and Western religious philosophies into a coherent belief system that works for you? Are there others that believe as you do? -- or is your's a unique "religion"? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 13:52:15 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
Val states:| My deities help me focus on those aspects of myself that I am not pleased with and change them accordingly. |
He also maintains:| The Gods, by definition, are supernatural. They have impact only within myself and not the outside world. |
You have commented....| Those that think you really don't believe in supernatural beings appear to be wrong. You (Valiant Dancer) have stated that you do. |
I still don't see Val's belief in supernatural deities as homologous to the typical Christian's belief in Jesus Christ, or even in God; or the average Muslim's belief in Allah.
His deities appear to be completely personal by his own statement, and it is difficult to find a Christian believer whose god is exclusively a personal one. There is at least the suggestion in VD's description of the deities that he visualizes that they are internal constructs that are used as tools to shape the ethical and moral framework by which he wishes to live.
To me, this appears significantly different than the belief systems of those who feel they must conform to the ethical and moral constraints as expressed by an external god whose domain is supposed to be all of mankind.
I feel that there is a decided dichotomy here in the implications of the word belief as applied to a deist. Perhaps this is mere semantic niggling, but I see VD's guidance by deities as comparable to a person who states that they are driven by demons to perhaps make unfortunate choices. I don't mean to imply that Val's choices are unfortunate nor that he is driven by demons -- only that the word and sense of the word may be more metaphorical than literal. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 02:08:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
only that the word and sense of the word may be more metaphorical than literal.
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Again, my only point was that anecdotal evidence that this somehow makes him a better person, whatever that means, is not sufficient to draw any conclusions.
It seems that you think believing in real gods metaphorically is better than believing in real gods unmetaphorically, and I'm not sure why, but that's a different matter.
My unscientific observation after having talked to many people is that people believe that their reality is insufficient, or maybe more correctly that they are insufficient for reality, and that they have to create a fantasy world where these (false) insufficiencies can be mitigated (falsely). We all do it. Belief in the supernatural is just a subset of bad ideas, not the only bad ideas there are.
(edited because my brain was hijacked) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/12/2009 07:52:10 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 21:31:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Val.....
Have you developed this overeaching spiritual construct that organizes and defines your deistic belief system pretty much all by yourself? It appears to incorporate elements of classical Hellenic physics (Earth, Air, Fire, and Water) with certain aspects of Indian Gaudiya Vaishnava theology and that of the the Upanishads. It is quite a remarkable composite of significantly discrete belief systems.
How did you come to combine these Eastern and Western religious philosophies into a coherent belief system that works for you? Are there others that believe as you do? -- or is your's a unique "religion"?
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No, I have not developed this overreaching spiritual construct all by myself. These were first begun in the late 1890's by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Later, this group incorporated into Ordo Templis Orientus which seperated itself (arguably was only tenuously associated with in the first place) from the Freemasons in 1907. After the repeal of the anti-witchcraft laws in England in the 1950's, Gerald Gardner took those concepts and refined them into Gardnerian Wicca. I ran across one of these groups in 1989 and became one of them.
There are an estimated one million of us in the US.
The portion of my spirituality which is unique to me came about over 20 years of introspection and practice. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Why religion is Woo too
