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cantbe323
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Posted - 02/04/2010 :  12:48:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How about that debate? Have you picked your subject?>>

Okay, let's see how you pick this one apart...

Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being, but we will probably never come to that realization because we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes. As a result, we are forced to live in a half illusionary and half real world.

Things we touch, things we see, and the pain we feel are the closest we'll ever get to the gap between real and illusion, but to accept that fact would force us to admit our helplessness.

cantbe323

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Fripp
SFN Regular

USA
727 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  13:17:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Fripp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323



Okay, let's see how you pick this one apart...

Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being, but we will probably never come to that realization because we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes. As a result, we are forced to live in a half illusionary and half real world.

Things we touch, things we see, and the pain we feel are the closest we'll ever get to the gap between real and illusion, but to accept that fact would force us to admit our helplessness.

cantbe323




Hmmm... Interesting.

So how do you plan to test this hypothesis/theory? In what way is it falsifiable?


we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes.


Since when? Obviously there are some people who feel that they can alter events and/or outcomes merely by positive thinking. And as much as I wish it otherwise, the percentage of people who believe this is probably over 50%. But some doesn't mean all. Moreover, since this a volitional choice and not a universal constant, it doesn't lend itself to controls, double-blind tests, or any other kind of cause-and-effect process.

This is hardly a testable, repeatable hypothesis.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"

"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?"
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  13:19:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being, but we will probably never come to that realization


Um, YOU have already come to that realization and if you bothered to ask you would find that most sciency folks agree that our senses are our only confirmation of being. The rest of your statement is just metafluff with no real substance.

I for one am of the opinion that reality is depressing and reality aint for the masses.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/04/2010 13:20:38
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  13:54:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323

How about that debate? Have you picked your subject?>>

Okay, let's see how you pick this one apart...
This is supposed to be a serious debate argument? I can't even tell what position you're trying to defend.
Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being...
If you are a brain floating in a vat, then all those senses are illusory, and hence don't confirm your being at all.
...but we will probably never come to that realization because we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes.
Not just conditioned that way, that's the way it looks. If I tell my arm to move, it looks like it moves. Of course, if all our senses are illusory, then I don't even know if I have an arm to move.
As a result, we are forced to live in a half illusionary and half real world.
Most people don't think about it.
Things we touch, things we see, and the pain we feel are the closest we'll ever get to the gap between real and illusion, but to accept that fact would force us to admit our helplessness.
I don't think you've explored solipsism enough. If our senses aren't reliable, then reality (if any such thing exists) is unknowable, and the "gap" is an infinitely large chasm.

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cantbe323
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242 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  15:13:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being... cantbe >>>

If you are a brain floating in a vat, then all those senses are illusory, and hence don't confirm your being at all.>>

In that state, all your senses would be dead along with you.

...but we will probably never come to that realization because we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes.>> cantbe323...

Not just conditioned that way, that's the way it looks . If I tell my arm to move, it looks like it moves. Of course, if all our senses are illusory, then I don't even know if I have an arm to move.>>

If you tell your arm to move it moves because it moved that way over the years hundreds of times, not because you tell it to move. IMO, Your wants have nothing to do with the way you act.

Things we touch, things we see, and the pain we feel are the closest we'll ever get to the gap between real and illusion, but to accept that fact would force us to admit our helplessness. Cantbe323 >>

I don't think you've explored solipsism enough. If our senses aren't reliable, then reality (if any such thing exists) is unknowable, and the "gap" is an infinitely large chasm. >>

Solipsism never made much sense to me. The body and its physical functions are the only existant things. Concept of our self can only lead to more illusion.

canbe323
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Dave W.
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USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  15:22:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323

If you are a brain floating in a vat, then all those senses are illusory, and hence don't confirm your being at all.>>

In that state, all your senses would be dead along with you.
Okay, so just because you claim to be alive, I should believe you? Why should I have blind faith in your statements?
If you tell your arm to move it moves because it moved that way over the years hundreds of times, not because you tell it to move. IMO, Your wants have nothing to do with the way you act.
I've got no idea if I even have an arm. There's just my senses telling me that I do, and I'm unsure if they are relaying "reality" to me or not. And yet you expect me to believe your opinion just on your say-so?
Solipsism never made much sense to me.
Well, that's a problem, because it does make sense (it's an internally consistent philosophy and compatible with all allegedly empirical data). You reject it because you don't understand it, and so reject it out of ignorance. There are good reasons to reject solipsism, and for a skeptic, being right for the wrong reason (ignorance) isn't much better than being wrong.
The body and its physical functions are the only existant things.
Where is your evidence for such a statement? How can you demonstrate that your body truly exists, even to yourself?
Concept of our self can only lead to more illusion.
And yet, our concept of self is one of the only things we can know directly. Everything that is allegedly external to our minds is hearsay, pumped into our brains (or whatever really passes for our thinking sacs) from afar. "Phantom limbs" demonstrate that our sense of touch can be badly mistaken. Optical illusions demonstrate the same for sight. Have you never once smelled something that nobody around you smelled, or heard something that nobody else heard? The nerves between the outside world and our brains are quite capable of relaying wrong and even contradictory information. How can you know that any particular piece of data that your brain receives is valid?

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cantbe323
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242 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  15:44:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Solipsism never made much sense to me. The body and its physical functions are the only existant things. >> cantbe323 >>

Where is your evidence for such a statement? >>

Sorry. I should have preceded it with IMO

How can you demonstrate that your body truly exists, even to yourself?>>

IMO Because of the physical things it does, can do, and the nagging pain I have in my leg right now. Pain supersedes all here and now rationalizations.

cantbe323
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  15:53:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323

Sorry. I should have preceded it with IMO
That's no escape. Opinions are things that you think are true. And I was asking why you think it's true.
IMO Because of the physical things it does, can do, and the nagging pain I have in my leg right now. Pain supersedes all here and now rationalizations.
And phantom pain neatly falsifies the idea that pain is somehow an indicator of existence.

And really, this is your idea of a serious debate?

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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  10:59:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm....Serious question cantbe323.

Were you ever a heavy user of LSD?

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  14:14:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

If you are a brain floating in a vat, then all those senses are illusory, and hence don't confirm your being at all.
If you are positing that cant123 possibly could be a brain floating in a vat, how would 123 be capable of cognition, and have the ability to have concern for it's being?

If 123's brain being in a vat is totally a fantasy, how does your argument have any relevance to his comments?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  14:43:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cant123.....

Our sight, hearing, taste, feel, and smell are our only confirmation of being, but we will probably never come to that realization because we're conditioned to believe we have the power to make things happen with our hopes and wishes. As a result, we are forced to live in a half illusionary and half real world.
Why is sensory information delivered by sensory modalities illusory? If the world is "real" (in your definition of something that is separate from mere perception), then one's senses are providing evidence of reality, not illusion.

Your quasi-religious conception of preordination and an external reality that is apparently unrelated to a sensory experience of reality is oxymoronic self-contradiction. If reality exists independent of our sensing it, that is the only reality, and it is meaningless to speak of a "half-illusionary and half real world"

Reality exists at many levels of understanding. The reality illustrated by many scientific instruments (microscope, spectroscope, electron microscope, particle collider, telescope, ad infinitum) is at a significantly different level of understanding than the reality understood from raw sensory data.

There are many more levels than these two.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  16:47:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The brain in a vat:
In philosophy, the brain in a vat is an element used in a variety of thought experiments intended to draw out certain features of our ideas of knowledge, reality, truth, mind, and meaning. It is drawn from the idea, common to many science fiction stories, that a mad scientist might remove a person's brain from the body, suspend it in a vat of life-sustaining liquid, and connect its neurons by wires to a supercomputer which would provide it with electrical impulses identical to those the brain normally receives. According to such stories, the computer would then be simulating reality (including appropriate responses to the brain's own output) and the person with the "disembodied" brain would continue to have perfectly normal conscious experiences without these being related to objects or events in the real world.

The simplest use of brain-in-a-vat scenarios is as an argument for philosophical skepticism and Solipsism. A simple version of this runs as follows: Since the brain in a vat gives and receives the exact same impulses as it would if it were in a skull, and since these are its only way of interacting with its environment, then it is not possible to tell,
from the perspective of that brain, whether it is in a skull or a vat. Yet in the first case most of the person's beliefs may be true (if he believes, say, that he is walking down the street, or eating ice-cream); in the latter case they are false. Since, the argument says, you cannot know whether you are a brain in a vat, then you cannot know whether most of your beliefs might be completely false. Since, in principle, it is impossible to rule out your being a brain in a vat, you cannot have good grounds for believing any of the things you believe; you certainly cannot know them.

This argument is a contemporary version of the argument given by Descartes in
Meditations on First Philosophy (which he eventually rejects) that he could not trust his perceptions on the grounds that an evil demon might, conceivably, be controlling his every experience. It is also more distantly related to Descartes' argument that he cannot trust his perceptions because he may be dreaming (Descartes' dream argument is preceded by Zhuangzi in "Chuang Chou dreamed he was a butterfly"). In this latter argument the worry about active deception is removed.

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bngbuck
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USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  22:56:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The rest of what wiki says about the thought experiment - Brain in a Vat

Such puzzles have been worked over in many variations by philosophers in recent decades. American philosopher Hilary Putnam popularized the modern terminology over Descartes's "evil daemon," although it brings up such complications and objections as whether the mind is reducible to the workings of a brain. Some, including Barry Stroud, continue to insist that such puzzles constitute an unanswerable objection to any knowledge claims. Hilary Putnam argued against the special case of a brain born in a vat. In the first chapter of his 1982 Reason, Truth, and History, Putnam claims that the thought experiment is inconsistent on the grounds that a brain born in a vat could not have the sort of history and interaction with the world that would allow its thoughts or words to be about the vat that it is in.

This would pretty much be my view, given that the brain had always been in the vat during it's entire existence, it would not possess sufficient cognition to intelligently communicate about the "reality" of existence. If, however, a mature adult brain had been transplanted from a person whose brain (and body) had had an extended existence in the "real" world, I would not expect much difference in cognitive ability in or out of body simply because the natural sense modalities has been replaced with mechanical ones. Back to wiki:

In other words, if a brain in a vat stated "I am a brain in a vat", it would always be stating a falsehood. If the brain making this statement lives in the "real" world, then it is not a brain in a vat. On the other hand, if the brain making this statement is really just a brain in the vat then by stating "I am a brain in a vat" what the brain is really stating is "I am what nerve stimuli have convinced me is a 'brain,' and I reside in an image that I have been convinced is called a 'vat'." That is, a brain in a vat would never be thinking about real brains or real vats, but rather about images sent into it that resemble real brains or real vats. This of course makes our definition of "real" even more muddled. This refutation of the vat theory is a consequence of his endorsement, at that time, of the causal theory of reference. Roughly, in this case: if you've never experienced the real world, then you can't have thoughts about it, whether to deny or affirm them. Putnam contends that by "brain" and "vat" the brain in a vat must be referring not to things in the "outside" world but to elements of its own "virtual world"; and it is clearly not a brain in a vat in that sense. One of the other problems is that the supposed brain in a vat cannot have any evidence for being a brain in a vat, because that would be saying "I have what nerve stimuli have convinced me is evidence to my being a brain in a vat" and also "Nerve stimuli have convinced me of the fact that I am a brain in a vat".

Opposing views abound however. Some are mentioned here.
Back to wiki

Many writers, however, have found Putnam's proposed solution unsatisfying, as it appears, in this regard at least, to depend on a shaky theory of meaning: that we cannot meaningfully talk or think about the "external" world because we cannot experience it; sounds like a version of the outmoded verification principle.[3] Consider the following quote: "How can the fact that, in the case of the brains in a vat, the language is connected by the program with sensory inputs which do not intrinsically or extrinsically represent trees (or anything external) possibly bring it about that the whole system of representations, the language in use, does refer to or represent trees or any thing external?" Putnam here argues from the lack of sensory inputs representing (real world) trees to our inability to meaningfully think about trees. But it is not clear why the referents of our terms must be accessible to us in experience. One cannot, for example, have experience of other people's private states of consciousness; does this imply that one cannot meaningfully ascribe mental states to others?
I am not at all sure that I have any idea of what all this convoluted language is attempting to convey or exactly how is purports to question Putnam's thesis. At the very least, I feel the language is unclear.

However......back to wiki


Subsequent writers on the topic have been particularly interested in the problems it presents for content: that is, how - if at all - can the brain's thoughts be about a person or place with whom it has never interacted and which perhaps does not exist?

And presumably, that includes the persona for which the BIAV is a proxy. I asked....
If you are positing that cant123 possibly could be a brain floating in a vat, how would 123 be capable of cognition, and have the ability to have concern for it's being?.....
So as concerns imaginary brains born in imaginary vats, I would side with Putnam.

However, until medical and biological science allows brains to be born, sans body, in vats.....
If 123's brain being in a vat is totally a fantasy, how does your argument have any relevance to his comments?


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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
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Posted - 02/06/2010 :  00:15:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who cares about whether the brain in the vat can truthfully or meaningfully talk about itself or its vat? cantbe asserted that our senses confirm our existence, but if he's a brain in a vat (however and whenever he got there), then his senses are all fake, and how fake senses could confirm anything, I couldn't say. Which is, it seems to me, why Descartes found thinking alone to be positive confirmation of his existence.

Suggesting that a brain in a vat is incapable of cognition is to suggest that cognition requires something more than just a brain. So if one were to cruelly but carefully sever all of a person's sensory and motor nerves, leaving only blood flow (which doesn't contribute to cognition itself, just like how computing can occur without electricity), that person would necessarily stop thinking. I see no reason to believe that, especially since blind, deaf mutes don't seem to think less than a fully sensed person.

and, if one is a brain in a vat, then everything one knows about "medical and biological science" (or anything else, for that matter) is entirely dependent upon what signals the supercomputer is pumping into one's brain. Even cantbe's naive empiricism would be wholly based upon whatever his brain's keepers were allowing him to see, touch, taste, hear and smell. A brain's keepers could create a universe for that brain to interact with in which physics, chemistry, biology (etc.) are entirely fictitious but still internally consistent. To claim that science (or anything else) is a reflection of "reality" requires one to first escape from solipsism, and to do so on a basis better than "it makes no sense" or Putnam's idea that certain assertions would always be false (if reality is fake, then who cares what's false?).

But hell, the very name, "the brain in a vat," gives the unfortunate connotation that we're talking about a human brain. But the same problem of "what is real?" is faced by anything capable of thought. I'll be convinced that we've developed the first human-level artificial intelligence as soon as a computer wonders if it's really a computer, or if it's just a brain in a vat. Because for all I know, I'm just a computer program dreaming that I'm a human.

Fantasy or reality? It's impossible to tell. That's the point. cantbe thinks that his senses are meaningful proxies to an objective reality, but he's offered no argument in favor of such a position, just an assertion of his bewilderment of the converse. He can't offer any reasons for why he thinks he even has an "arm" to "move" that aren't easily falsified, but he thinks he knows the reason why his arm moves, anyway. He asked me to pick his argument apart (such as it is), and the easy route was solipsism, for which he has no answer because he doesn't understand it and he refuses to "admit his helplessness" in the face of it.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9687 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  04:03:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
I see no reason to believe that, especially since blind, deaf mutes don't seem to think less than a fully sensed person.
But they still have tactile sense, smell, and taste.

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