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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2010 : 11:26:04
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Here is an article update on the trial involving Prop 8 (California's) and the Mormon church's involvement, in violation of there tax exempt status. From the article, ‘You’re making the Church look bad,’ he said. But I said, ‘I’m not making the Church look bad. I’m telling what the Church is doing. If it looks bad, it’s because it is bad.’
Will this end with the mormons loosing their tax exempt status? Not in America but I can hope. I can at least enjoy their misery, considering how much of it they cause.
SS
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/churchstate/2236/when_mormons_mobilize%3A_anti-gay_marriage_prop._8_effort_%E2%80%98outed%E2%80%99
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:46:35 [Permalink]
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Ah schadenfreude, how you delight the soul. Would that we could have more of you.
Nah, they're not going to lose their tax exemption. No politician in the country has the onions to suggest that. A pity.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 14:34:05 [Permalink]
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The Mormons could have put down a billion dollars and not stopped prop 8. No amount of money could have stopped it. The only way to stop it was the peoples voice (a vote). Every state in the union who has put the gay marriage thing to a vote has seen gay marriage rejected, whether the LDS was involved or not. The folks don't want gay marriage and so now the only way they are going to be able to advance the gay marriage agenda is to try and legislate it through the courts, cause it is/has been rejected by the folks every time it has been brought to ballot.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:31:10 [Permalink]
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Yes Bill, that is the case for now and you are right. Choke, I'm chocking and can't breathe, I glad I don't have to say or think that very often. 
I'm 58 and I believe, it's my opinion, there is a difference in attitude of the younger voters. From what I've seen of younger people are as a whole are more accepting of other races and gays. I would not be at all surprised if given time that there will be gay marriages or union laws passed. It will be others who will be choking then. If not I ill be choking on this until I die. I'm guessing you disagree. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:19:24 [Permalink]
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| I never understood why civil rights have to pass a popular vote. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:34:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
The folks don't want gay marriage and so now the only way they are going to be able to advance the gay marriage agenda is to try and legislate it through the courts... |
Translation:| The folks want to maintain their bigotry and so now the only way to guarantee fairness is through the courts... |
Which is exactly what the courts are for, so this would be a good example of our constitutional republic at work. As long as the courts do the right thing by rejecting the popular movement against civil rights for all, of course. The courts have a good history in this regard, even if judicial opinions are (appropriately!) slow to change. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 02:16:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
The Mormons could have put down a billion dollars and not stopped prop 8. No amount of money could have stopped it. The only way to stop it was the peoples voice (a vote).Every state in the union who has put the gay marriage thing to a vote has seen gay marriage rejected, whether the LDS was involved or not. The folks don't want gay marriage and so now the only way they are going to be able to advance the gay marriage agenda is to try and legislate it through the courts, cause it is/has been rejected by the folks every time it has been brought to ballot. |
[My emphasis.]
First, Bill, the Mormon Church didn't want to stop the anti-gay Prop 8, but were actively campaigning for it, using the full power of their Church to impose their "morals" on secular society.
At the time of the election, same-sex marriage was fully established as legal in California. Prop 8 was designed to take away the existing civil right to same-sex marriage. (As a law designed solely to deny rights to a group, it appears to be unique in recent history.)
Please get the basics of an issue correct in your head before weighing in, eh?
Second, as others have more eloquently pointed out, the basic rights of law-abiding minorities are not properly up for a vote, be it a vote of a legislature, or of the people. As in Loving v. Virginia (which, by invalidating a racist law enacted by the state of Virginia, nationally established the right of inter-race couples to marry), it is up to the courts to determine exactly what these essential rights are.
Male-only voting was once also popular among the males who had the vote. That didn't make it right. (Yes, in this case the remedy was changing the Constitution by explicitly adding the right of women to vote.)
I suspect that you, Bill, would have a completely different take on the voters of California if they had originally voted in the right of same-sex marriage, instead of this right having been (temporarily) ordered by the courts. Then you'd be saying they were out of line, because they were oppressing people of faith who would be outraged to have to stand in grocery lines next to married gay couples.
Within a few years, younger and socially more progressive voters will dominate the demographics of California and many other states. I'll be interested in seeing how sacrosanct you think their voting is then, when it runs counter to your sexual bigotry and your desire to impose your biases upon others. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/03/2010 03:14:44 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 06:40:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Yes Bill, that is the case for now and you are right. Choke, I'm chocking and can't breathe, I glad I don't have to say or think that very often.
I'm 58 and I believe, it's my opinion, there is a difference in attitude of the younger voters. From what I've seen of younger people are as a whole are more accepting of other races and gays. I would not be at all surprised if given time that there will be gay marriages or union laws passed. It will be others who will be choking then. If not I ill be choking on this until I die. I'm guessing you disagree. SS
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| From what I've seen of younger people are as a whole are more accepting of other races and gays. |
It has been that way for every generation. The young people tend to be more liberal then do the established folks. Generally by the time young people reach 23-25 they have just graduated from college or they have established themselves in a full time job and have left mom and dad. They enter the real world under the delusion that the world operates by their rules and they are just chomping at the bit to buck some authority, any authority at all, and as a result most, if not then at least many, have their most liberal years from 25-30. But as they discover the real world and find out that it don't operate by their rules, and then throw in 10-15 years worth of life experiences, and this cycle tends to sway the convictions of many. So by the time they are 40 they tend to be much more conservative then when they were 20. I myself am a perfect example. As a 40 year old I look back at some of the decisions I made and the conclusions about life that I came to at age 20 and I am just amazed and bewildered at what I could have been possibly thinking. I will paraphrase Paul here as he sums it up well: When I was a child I believed and behaved like a child, but now that I have become a man I have put childish things away. And as a result many of the young people today who support gay marriage will be the same people who are opposed to gay marriage 20 years from now. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 06:53:26 [Permalink]
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As a 40 year old, I find myself to be even more progressive than I was in my 20s, and I do characterize myself as a very successful person in the world of corporations. I haven't depended on my Mommy and Daddy for almost 2 decades now. And yes I have been mugged, and there is no way in hell I would ever vote for a social conservative, no matter what party they belong to.
Maybe I'm just an outlier. I also tend to not watch network television, I love college football, and I live in the Deep South but have no belief in any god.
You are right; the real world does operate differently than what young people tend to think as the emerge from college. Sadly, the majority see it better to chase after what the world offers (religion, money, fear). It is far easier.
Too bad they don't have a backbone. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 06:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
I never understood why civil rights have to pass a popular vote.
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What do gay marriage and civil rights have to do with each other? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 07:10:08 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| As long as the courts do the right thing |
And there is one big subjective term. It has been my history that doing the right thing and what Dave believes are one in the same.
| by rejecting the popular movement |
Typical liberal stance. The populace is to stupid and ignorant to take care of themselves so we will ram what we think is best for them down their throats for their own good. The folks have little concern for man made global warming climate change yet the liberals insist on ramming their agenda through anyway. The folks reject gay marriage yet the liberals insist and ramming it though anyway. Etc... Etc...
| against civil rights for all, of course. |
What do civil rights have to do with a lifestyle choice? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 07:27:19 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by pleco |
| As a 40 year old, I find myself to be even more progressive than I was in my 20s, and I do characterize myself as a very successful person in the world of corporations. I haven't depended on my Mommy and Daddy for almost 2 decades now. And yes I have been mugged, and there is no way in hell I would ever vote for a social conservative, no matter what party they belong to. |
Did you notice that I said many and most? In a county of 300 million there will always be the exception(s).
| Maybe I'm just an outlier. I also tend to not watch network television, |
I cannot stand network TV, unless they are covering the NFL.
I prefer the NFL.
| and I live in the Deep South |
Go Bama!
| but have no belief in any god. |
There are others who agree with you.
| You are right; the real world does operate differently than what young people tend to think as the emerge from college. |
Common knowledge for those of us who have been blessed/lucky enough to make it to 40.
| Sadly, the majority see it better to chase after what the world offers (religion, money, fear). |
I can see money but the majority chase after fear?
Personally, I crave little of what the world has to offer, after all I am 40 so I have lived long enough to know better.
Then what?
| Too bad they don't have a backbone. |
Who are "they"?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 02/03/2010 07:32:08 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 07:35:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| by rejecting the popular movement |
Typical liberal stance. The populace is to stupid and ignorant to take care of themselves so we will ram what we think is best for them down their throats for their own good. The folks have little concern for man made global warming climate change yet the liberals insist on ramming their agenda through anyway. The folks reject gay marriage yet the liberals insist and ramming it though anyway. Etc... Etc... |
You are making the false assumption that what is in the best interest of the majority is also what is morally correct. This is a very dangerous assumption, leading to mob rule instead of justice.
Segregation was a popular idea back some decades before in the USA. It may have even been in the best interest of the majority (ie, priviliging white people). It was not in the best interest of the minority and it was not "right". That the courts rejected the popular movement as unconstitutional was the correct thing to do.
| against civil rights for all, of course. |
What do civil rights have to do with a lifestyle choice?
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Being able to make your own life style choices is a civil right. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:12:15 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by tomk80 |
| You are making the false assumption that what is in the best interest of the majority is also what is morally correct. This is a very dangerous assumption, leading to mob rule instead of justice. |
It can be even more dangerous to allow a liberal fringe to ram through an agenda against the will of the people just because the progressives believe they know what is best for all. At some point the will of the people must be acknowledged or they will revolt in one way or another. The latest example being Massachusetts.
| Segregation was a popular idea back some decades before in the USA. It may have even been in the best interest of the majority (ie, priviliging white people). It was not in the best interest of the minority and it was not "right". That the courts rejected the popular movement as unconstitutional was the correct thing to do. |
While I would agree with the segregation thing this has no relevance to the gay marriage agneda.
| Being able to make your own life style choices is a civil right. |
Says who? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:36:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And there is one big subjective term. It has been my history that doing the right thing and what Dave believes are one in the same. |
Damn straight. My morality (what's right) is mine.
Do you not believe in some things that you think are right?! Or do you believe in some things that you think are wrong?| Typical liberal stance. The populace is to stupid and ignorant to take care of themselves so we will ram what we think is best for them down their throats for their own good. The folks have little concern for man made global warming climate change yet the liberals insist on ramming their agenda through anyway. The folks reject gay marriage yet the liberals insist and ramming it though anyway. Etc... Etc... |
"Etc... Etc..." being a shorthand for "interracial marriage," "the end of slavery," "women being allowed to vote." Yes, Bill, the existence of a bigoted majority means that civil rights have to be enforced by the government, because the bigots won't stop being bigoted all by themselves.| What do civil rights have to do with a lifestyle choice? |
Indeed. Why should straight people be allowed to marry? It's a lifestyle choice. By making all marriage illegal, we can cut the divorce rate to zero, thus saving society a lot of time and money and heartbreak in court proceedings.
See, Bill, being gay isn't actually the issue. In Loving v. Virginia, the Supreme Court ruled that marriage is a basic civil right. By denying marriage to gay people, you're denying their civil rights as defined by our government.
And still, you have neglected to say why. What is it about gay marriage that you thin goes against the best interest of society? Is the reason something secular, at least? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:55:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Paulos23
I never understood why civil rights have to pass a popular vote.
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What do gay marriage and civil rights have to do with each other?
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As Dave pointed out the Supreme Court said marriage was a basic civil right, and that was for interracial marriage. What is different about interracial marriage compared to same sex marriage? Other then the sexes involved, nothing. In fact the same arguments used against interracial marriage have been among the arguments against same sex marriage. And they have the same validity now as they did then, none.
Civil rights are there to protect the minority from the majority, and if the majority gets to vote on the civil right, you might as well not have any civil rights. (Bye bye Bill of Rights) |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Deceiving in the name of Jesus, again
