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 Legislating ignorance in Utah
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  05:10:34  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It hasn't happened yet, but Chris Buttars (R-Dimwit) is working on it.
Imagine being forced to skip your senior year of high school. Or having the option.

If you live in Utah, that could become a reality. In an effort to bridge a $700 million budget shortfall, Republican state Sen. Chris Buttars has put forth a plan to eliminate 12th grade in high school, the Los Angeles Times reports.
This raises a sticky question: how might a college react to the entrance application of a student who didn't finish high school because there was no 12th grade? Would he/she be forced to get a GED?

I don't think it's going to happen, but it's chilling to see the concept out there.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  06:05:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

It hasn't happened yet, but Chris Buttars (R-Dimwit) is working on it.
Imagine being forced to skip your senior year of high school. Or having the option.

If you live in Utah, that could become a reality. In an effort to bridge a $700 million budget shortfall, Republican state Sen. Chris Buttars has put forth a plan to eliminate 12th grade in high school, the Los Angeles Times reports.
This raises a sticky question: how might a college react to the entrance application of a student who didn't finish high school because there was no 12th grade? Would he/she be forced to get a GED?

I don't think it's going to happen, but it's chilling to see the concept out there.







I don't think anybody wants to have to eliminate anything from the public school. The trouble is most states are currently facing budget shortfalls across the board and with education being one of our biggest consumer of tax dollars the problem is only amplified in that theater. This may, or may not, be the best option to gap the budget shortfall, but the point being cuts are going to have to be made somewhere. And no matter where you cut it somebody ain't gonna be happy. The day has come when the states can't keep throwing these $700 million shortfalls on their Visa card and then just live as if life is grand. The real world don't work that way and even the government can only operate in that fashion for so long before the house of cards tumbles. The federal government has hit their 14 trillion debt limit on their Visa card so don't go crying to them. You think Utah can just pull this $700 million out of a hat?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  08:02:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott
...with education being one of our biggest consumer of tax dollars

I find that hard to believe.

Also... Why waste trillions of dollars on an unprovoked and unnecessary war when you can invest them in your furute, the most valuable asset you have: children.
That's math that doesn't add up for me.


The day has come when the states can't keep throwing these $700 million shortfalls on their Visa card and then just live as if life is grand.
You mean like the Neo-Con Republicans have, the last 8 years? And during Reagan and Bush sr.?

The real world don't work that way and even the government can only operate in that fashion for so long before the house of cards tumbles.
One of the most insightful responses I've read from you, ever. Too bad a lot of moderate republicans can't see that way. The far right repubs are too far gone for any hope of sanity.


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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/16/2010 08:08:00
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  09:04:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse



I find that hard to believe.


Your right. We spend far less % of the federal budget on education then I thought. Heck it showed that we spend almost 3X's as much on interest a year then we do education. And this was for 2007. Having said that I also found numbers that show as the spending per student went up this did nothing to improve performance. So in America at least, it don't sound like the solution is as easy as just throwing more money at it.


Also... Why waste trillions of dollars on an unprovoked and unnecessary war when you can invest them in your furute, the most valuable asset you have: children.
That's math that doesn't add up for me.


I agree. I think a lot of money has been squandered here.

The day has come when the states can't keep throwing these $700 million shortfalls on their Visa card and then just live as if life is grand.


You mean like the Neo-Con Republicans have, the last 8 years? And during Reagan and Bush sr.?


I mean anybody who justs add to the debt with no way to pay for it. Unfortunately for the tax payers we are into our second spending president in a row. Bush left us with a debt that Obama just keeps piling on to.

The real world don't work that way and even the government can only operate in that fashion for so long before the house of cards tumbles.


One of the most insightful responses I've read from you, ever. Too bad a lot of moderate republicans can't see that way. The far right repubs are too far gone for any hope of sanity.


Bush and his party spent with no way to pay for it, no doubt about it. But Obama and his party have taken up right where he left off. Deficit spending is bad for the nation whether it is a pub or dem putting everything on uncle sam Visa card. The trouble is many will blast the opposition for deficit spending while they remain rather comfortable with their own party deficit spending. When in reality all deficit spending is bad as far as I am concerned.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  09:42:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Bill scott
...with education being one of our biggest consumer of tax dollars
I find that hard to believe.
Actually in Utah's budget (PDF file), 66.3% of the State's "General and Education Fund" went to public and higher education (50.9% for public schools, 15.4% on higher ed). That's figure 8, on page 8 (page 19 of the PDF). If you look at figure 10 on page 9, public schools make up 31.1% of the entire budget (a bigger slice of the pie than any other), and higher education another 12.3%.

The General and Education Fund of Utah is expected to take in $4.4 billion this year. A $700 million shortfall is a huge 16% drop in revenues.
Also... Why waste trillions of dollars on an unprovoked and unnecessary war when you can invest them in your furute, the most valuable asset you have: children.
That's math that doesn't add up for me.
Federal government spending on education is minuscule. It's almost all up to the individual states. On the other hand, spending on defense (or offense, as the case may be) is entirely Federal.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  11:19:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Bill scott
...with education being one of our biggest consumer of tax dollars
I find that hard to believe.
Actually in Utah's budget (PDF file), 66.3% of the State's "General and Education Fund" went to public and higher education (50.9% for public schools, 15.4% on higher ed). That's figure 8, on page 8 (page 19 of the PDF). If you look at figure 10 on page 9, public schools make up 31.1% of the entire budget (a bigger slice of the pie than any other), and higher education another 12.3%.

The General and Education Fund of Utah is expected to take in $4.4 billion this year. A $700 million shortfall is a huge 16% drop in revenues.
Also... Why waste trillions of dollars on an unprovoked and unnecessary war when you can invest them in your furute, the most valuable asset you have: children.
That's math that doesn't add up for me.
Federal government spending on education is minuscule. It's almost all up to the individual states. On the other hand, spending on defense (or offense, as the case may be) is entirely Federal.


As a home owner I should have recalled states paying for the school budget (property taxes) dah. My bad. If I lost 16% of my income from last year there would have to be cut backs at my house, no doubt about it. I guess that was my point. Whether it is by eliminating the 12th grade, or some other cutback, Utah will have to spend $700 million less then what it budgeted for. At $15 trillion in the hole the feds can't keep bailing states out. You can't raise taxes on the folks in the middle of a severe recession. Well, you can, but it is not a good idea . So you got to slash spending somewhere. So that becomes the $64k question. How to cut $700 million from the education budget without anybody noticing?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  16:04:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This may, or may not, be the best option to gap the budget shortfall, but the point being cuts are going to have to be made somewhere.


About 50% of people attend college these days. You eliminate a year of high school, and you are seriously jeopardizing anyone's chance to apply to college.

I find it very difficult to think of another option that would be worse than this.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 02/16/2010 16:04:53
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  16:22:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott
As a home owner I should have recalled states paying for the school budget (property taxes) dah. My bad. If I lost 16% of my income from last year there would have to be cut backs at my house, no doubt about it. I guess that was my point. Whether it is by eliminating the 12th grade, or some other cutback, Utah will have to spend $700 million less then what it budgeted for. At $15 trillion in the hole the feds can't keep bailing states out. You can't raise taxes on the folks in the middle of a severe recession. Well, you can, but it is not a good idea . So you got to slash spending somewhere. So that becomes the $64k question. How to cut $700 million from the education budget without anybody noticing?

Why is cutting taxes worse than cutting budget. Both would have similar consequences. Cutting taxes raises the strain on a lot of people because they have less money left over after taxes. But cutting budget will cause strain on a lot of people because they will receive less money before taxes.

Take eliminating 12th grade. The reason this saves money is because a whole bunch of teachers will have no work, and a whole lot of office suppliers will sell less stuff (and thus in turn buy less stuff to make the stuff they sell and so on and so on). And of course it will rob a whole bunch of kids from their chance of gaining a competitive advantage in the job market later on.

Raising taxes and cutting government services often both have bad consequences. I just don't see where you get that one is necessarily better than the other.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  16:25:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

If I lost 16% of my income from last year there would have to be cut backs at my house, no doubt about it. I guess that was my point.
Yeah, that's all agreed on. The problem is that education always seems to be first on the chopping block, when it should be last. Or close to last. We've got plenty of examples of states which have screwed with their kids' educations, and those kids facing difficulties getting into good higher-ed schools, and as a result, businesses at least looking at leaving the state. Hell, regular moms and dads will leave the state, and both of these effects will hose up the tax base in a vicious cycle. The long-term effects of giving today's kids a crappy education will be that kids ten years from now will have even crappier educations.
So you got to slash spending somewhere. So that becomes the $64k question. How to cut $700 million from the education budget without anybody noticing?
Well, the real question is: why does it have to come from education spending? I figure that some law will need to be passed to re-write the educational standards to eliminate 12th grade (a move which may only save half of the $700 million shortfall, anyway), so why not instead pass laws that allow money from outside the General/Education Fund to be used to prop it up? There are millions in elected officials salaries that they should be willing to sacrifice for their children. The billions in major transportation projects (over the next five years) could also probably wait for a bit. If the Governor and legislature were of a single mind in that educating the kids were the most important thing to do, I'm sure that the $700 million could be found elsewhere. But that'll never happen, because most politicians are too short-sighted, failing to see past the next election.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  16:35:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy.....

This raises a sticky question: how might a college react to the entrance application of a student who didn't finish high school because there was no 12th grade? Would he/she be forced to get a GED?
It would cause enormous problems for the secondary school system with respect to the preparation of students wishing to attend college. For the average kid of reasonable intelligence, it is a pretty big jump from 12th grade in public school to Freshman in college.

At least it was for me. I didn't really get serious about my education until I entered college as a freshman engineering student. I worked my ass off and still did not get decent grades. I had to completely restructure my approach to life and future career to be able to survive the new academic environment, and be able to eventually graduate and go on to post-graduate work. But I was wolefully ill-prepared back in my freshman year!

Elimination of 12th grade would necessitate seriously restructuring grades one through eleven. If the summer break convention was maintained, far fewer students would qualify for college entrance and those that did would certainly be seriously challenged!

Elimination of summer vacation and mandatory year-round elementary and secondary education would probably solve the preparation problem, but would undoubtedly cost the public education system more than the elimination of 12th grade.

I can fully understand a Republican initiative to lower the level of public education, as the dumbing-down of the American public would certainly serve the Tea Party/Republican Party coalition's goals of establishing a one-party (their's) permanent form of government. Also it provides more money for the development of coal power, increasing oil exploration, building munitions plants, outlawing abortion and gun control, and persecuting homosexuals and women's rights.

The Teabaggers and Repubs certainly would welcome an ever more ignorant electorate because of their expertise in capturing these ill-educated (check the grammar and spelling on their signs) dolts as loyal followers.

Think of the money that a Republican administration and Congress will enjoy if they manage to eventually eliminate high school nation-wide!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  17:24:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is outrageous. When a state fails to provide such basics as public education, it is like a farmer feeding his seed grain to his horses. Utahns are destroying the future for their youth. Utah is a state where better than 50% of the population is Mormon.

The LDS Church requires a 10% tithe off the top of it's members' income. Just think what fine education the State could provide its young people if only that tremendous amount of money was diverted to pubic education, rather than building and maintaining huge, hideous temples and funding campaigns to deprive citizens of other states of their rights.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  17:31:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! That's pretty much how I'd figured it, but not in such detail nor with the reach.

This really is a nasty piece of work, but I've confidence that the folks in Utah are smart enough to not let it get past the what-if stage.

I've been wondering about Buttars all day -- I'd heard of him somewhere. So I looked him up. Turns out that he too, is a piece of work. Homophobic and an ID supporter, he seems to have a habit of letting his mouth get away from him. There have also been accusations of racism.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  17:43:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe it was Carl Sagan who said something like "When people ask about the cost of education, I ask 'What is the cost of ignorance?'"

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2010 :  18:05:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Josh Rosenau on Buttars:
We last encountered Buttars when he tried to push creationism in Utah's schools under the moniker "divine design," and you may recall his remarks about gays being "the greatest threat to America." He also thinks Brown v. Board of Education was wrongly decided. Somehow he remains in elective office.
There are links in Josh's post.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2010 :  00:09:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rachel Maddow on Buttars: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35431731)

I, for one, am an education advocate. We must teach our children, at the very least, to never say things like this:
"...I don't mind gays, but I don't want 'em stuffin' it down my throat all the time..."
One of the useful things about 12th grade is that in 12th grades all across the country, that kind of statement would at least get you a wedgie.
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