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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2010 : 12:07:35
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http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228923n
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:27:30 [Permalink]
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| Interesting, something to keep an eye on. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 15:25:01 [Permalink]
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I'm skeptical.
Fuel-cells have traditionally always been fuel-specific. And definitely not close to being as compact as the Bloom-box. In order to realize the Bloom-box, there would have to be a major revolution in our understanding of materials technology.
Then there's thermal excess from the process? A fuel-cell is far from 100% effective, and the loss means heat.
I don't buy this, but then it's not the first time 60 minutes has been hoaxed.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 16:48:41 [Permalink]
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| A more efficient energy conversion of fossil fuel sounds good as a stop-gap until we get next-generation nuclear and renewable energies up and running. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 01:59:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
A more efficient energy conversion of fossil fuel sounds good as a stop-gap until we get next-generation nuclear and renewable energies up and running.
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Yes, but I firmly believe that this particular product is bogus.
Also, we already have a renewable fuel for cars. Actually, two variants, in ethanol.
E85 for otto-cycle engines, and E95 (also known as Etamax-D) for diesel-cycle engine.
In Sweden, we've had Etamax-D powered busses for 20 years, and the technology is easily adaptable to car engines.
SAAB said they could easily reduce E85 consumption in their flexi-fuel engine with 5% if they were allowed to certify their emissions on E85 fuel istead of gasoline. And a true E85 optimization of the otto-engine could almost completely compensate for E85's lower energy-content.
What is lacking is political resolve to switch to a more renewable energysource. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 07:36:11 [Permalink]
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| There are a number of videos on youtube featuring the Bloom box. After watching a few all I got were claims, more claims and no real information. Not one fact but claims abound, vague at best. Maybe I just didn't see the right video but everything I seen says scam. To what end? For investor's money. Pure vaporware, IMO and any real hardware shown are props for investors eyes. Don't look you'll go poor! SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 08:08:25 [Permalink]
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Bob Park had this to say:ENERGY: THE BLOOM BOX DEFLOWERED.
The Hubbert Peak, IPCC reports, melting ice caps, does all this foretell a disaster? Maybe for polar bears, but for alternative energy pitchmen it's the mother lode. The free-energy scams such as Joe Newman's Energy Machine and Dennis Lees Hummingbird motor will still find mom-and-pop investors hoping to stretch their meager retirements, but the big money awaits a more sophisticated pitch. Consider the Bloom Box. The pitchman, K.R. Sridhar, CEO of Bloom Energy in Sunnyvale, is not your typical scam artist, but an artfully understated business executive. He can go on 60 Minutes or Good Morning America and never make a slip. But there are warning signs. What is it hes selling? "It starts with beach sand he says, opening a box of the stuff. It's like saying a diamond is a lump of carbon. Silicon dioxide is the most abundant mineral on Earth, and essential to modern electronics. With the help of animation, he explains that plates made of the stuff enable hydrocarbon gases to react with oxygen, producing an electric potential. It's a fuel cell. He never says so, maintaining the fiction that this is something really new. Its not. Fuel cells date back to 1838, but have found little application. The magic calls for painting the two sides of the plate with secret green and black ink respectively. Well there's a little more to it, but CEOs don't worry about details. Oh, and the Bloom Box is not cheap. However, Google, FedEx and Wel-Mart can afford to test the Bloom Box. Everybody loves the idea of distributed energy production, where we have our own power plant in the backyard. But a Bloom Box is not totally isolated; it needs to be tied to a gas pipeline. Is this the future? Probably not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 14:30:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Bob Park had this to say:ENERGY: THE BLOOM BOX DEFLOWERED.
The Hubbert Peak, IPCC reports, melting ice caps, does all this foretell a disaster? Maybe for polar bears, but for alternative energy pitchmen it's the mother lode. The free-energy scams such as Joe Newman's Energy Machine and Dennis Lees Hummingbird motor will still find mom-and-pop investors hoping to stretch their meager retirements, but the big money awaits a more sophisticated pitch. Consider the Bloom Box. The pitchman, K.R. Sridhar, CEO of Bloom Energy in Sunnyvale, is not your typical scam artist, but an artfully understated business executive. He can go on 60 Minutes or Good Morning America and never make a slip. But there are warning signs. What is it hes selling? "It starts with beach sand he says, opening a box of the stuff. It's like saying a diamond is a lump of carbon. Silicon dioxide is the most abundant mineral on Earth, and essential to modern electronics. With the help of animation, he explains that plates made of the stuff enable hydrocarbon gases to react with oxygen, producing an electric potential. It's a fuel cell. He never says so, maintaining the fiction that this is something really new. Its not. Fuel cells date back to 1838, but have found little application. The magic calls for painting the two sides of the plate with secret green and black ink respectively. Well there's a little more to it, but CEOs don't worry about details. Oh, and the Bloom Box is not cheap. However, Google, FedEx and Wel-Mart can afford to test the Bloom Box. Everybody loves the idea of distributed energy production, where we have our own power plant in the backyard. But a Bloom Box is not totally isolated; it needs to be tied to a gas pipeline. Is this the future? Probably not.
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Yes....but that says nothing about it not working.
Google, FedEx & Wal-Mart claim is does save them money. Even if it does not live up to the promises maybe it can help with these larger companies that are probably all massive power hogs. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 14:50:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Yes....but that says nothing about it not working.
Google, FedEx & Wal-Mart claim is does save them money. Even if it does not live up to the promises maybe it can help with these larger companies that are probably all massive power hogs. |
That's my take, too. The Bloom Box is probably not a scam as such so much as a fuel cell that may be over-sold as a green energy miracle.
I recall that in the 60 Minutes video, K.R. Sridhar explains some of the energy sources that the BB can use. He's asked whether that includes solar energy, and replies that it does. Now, that's just nonsense, probably stated simply to appeal to the more ignorant of environmentally-concerned people.
It seems to me that at best the BB may be a device producing electricity from natural gas more efficiently than other systems. It almost certainly releases carbon dioxide (but maybe less of it per Watt?). I'd like to see the evidence for the Bloom Box's vaunted efficiency. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 19:16:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Yes....but that says nothing about it not working. |
Nope, and I didn't offer it as such.| Google, FedEx & Wal-Mart claim is does save them money. Even if it does not live up to the promises maybe it can help with these larger companies that are probably all massive power hogs. |
However, the Google report may have been exaggerated a bit. And this report claims that none of the Bloom Box customers have had reductions in their utility bills.
Of course, I want a home fuel cell. If the title of this article is correct (they don't discuss it in the text), and it means that my cost per kilowatt-hour will be cut in half, then I could pay off a $3,000 Bloom Box in about 40 months, and the savings after that are gravy. But if the efficiency of the thing offers anything less than a 7.6% reduction in my bills, then I won't be able to pay it off before I retire, which seems a little much. But real efficiency values for the box seem hard to come by, perhaps on purpose.
What's really interesting to me are the claims of the inventor to want to have a Bloom Box in every home by 2020. In areas like the one in which I live, where most homes have gas already, $3,000 Bloom Boxes will sell like hotcakes if they can deliver a 50% cut in utility bills, even without things like tax credits for buying them.
Eventually - pretty quickly, I think - the local electric companies are going to be facing large losses in revenue, and when the bite gets too deep, the companies will fold, leaving whoever's lacking a Bloom Box (probably the majority of households) literally in the dark. So the government (either local or Federal) is going to be forced to either mandate the installation of Bloom Boxes or similar technology in all homes in such areas, or the government will have to take over grid-based power generation until every homeowner buys a grid-free power device voluntarily. (Seems like this would be a free-marketer's nightmare, brought about by free-market success.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 22:53:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And this report claims that none of the Bloom Box customers have had reductions in their utility bills. |
No, I think you misunderstood that reporter, Dave:| For one thing, the Bloom Box is coming too late (home versions are estimated to be three years from market introduction), and is benefiting the wrong people (corporations like FedEx, Google, and eBay are benefiting now, but no consumers are seeing a reduction in utility bills). |
He's complaining that no consumers (as opposed to corporations) are getting lower energy bills from it, because consumers can't get them yet. He's not counting corporations as "consumers," despite the fact they consummately consume.
But corporations may be saving only because of tax breaks, not because these things provide cheaper electricity. I've still seen no info that would contradict this. Still up in the air is the matter of their efficiency. No journalists are asking or answering the important questions. No surprise, that, given the quality of news coverage of science and technology. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/11/2010 10:30:40 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 10:26:53 [Permalink]
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| It appears this one is still up in the air. No solid evidence (yet) confirming or condemning. I remain skeptical until further evidence is presented. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 11:41:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
No, I think you misunderstood that reporter, Dave... |
Yeah, you're absolutely correct, I misread "consumers" as "customers," and the big corporations are undoubtedly customers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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The Bloom Box?
