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 Collateral murder? Looks like it.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2550 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2010 :  15:17:45  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy shit. Video evidence of american soldiers killing civilians in Iraq, and not giving a shit.

Perhaps the killers were merely mistaken, as happens in war. Perhaps they had better views of weaponry than can be seen in this video. But that doesn't explain what happened next, when a van pulls up to help a wounded man and they open fire again, fully aware of what was going on below them, and fire several bursts into the people and into the van.

Maybe they could see weapons more clearly than I can. But then how did they fail to notice two small faces peering out of the passenger side window of the van? They shot journalists and children, all the while laughing and congratulating themselves on the 'nice' pile of bodies they had produced. And when they see soldiers on the ground rushing injured children to aid, they say, "Well, it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle."


Let's see the Religious Right and assorted other bullshit groups try and say that "we're over there to help those people now". Sweet fuck.

The BBC has it. I wonder when "Faux news" will.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Edited by - the_ignored on 04/05/2010 15:54:26

Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2010 :  21:36:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But then how did they fail to notice two small faces peering out of the passenger side window of the van? They shot journalists and children, all the while laughing and congratulating themselves on the 'nice' pile of bodies they had produced.
This sentence is misleading and simply not true from watching the video. The children were hardly noticeable, later in the video it was zoomed in more than the original video showed. These soldiers were not saying "I see children let’s kill em" like the sentence indicates. Also not said in these reports is that the helicopter was there because American soldiers were pinned down by enemy gunfire and needed help.

I am ashamed. We are the storm troopers, the murderous invaders, the butchers of children, the laughing barbarians. We aren't in Iraq to help those people, our troops are there to oppress them…when we aren't gunning them down outright.
From this one video he concludes that all American soldiers are there to oppress and murder the Iraqis. He will probably dismiss any video of American soldiers helping the Iraqis as propaganda put out by the evil American government.

Now, I am not saying that what is in this video is right. I really do not know. What I am saying is we should make sure we have all the facts before we call our soldiers murderers. If they did know these men were unarmed, children were in the van and gunned them down anyway; then these soldiers should be charged.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2010 :  23:05:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sickening. These incompetent assholes criminals belong in prison.

Even if they had been right about the weapons, engaging the unarmed adults trying to help the victims is cold blooded murder.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  01:01:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As much as I'd like to point at these guys and say they're ruthless barbarians, if I'm being honest, I couldn't tell they were children even from the extra-zoomed in picture near the end which they didn't even have as far as I know. It appeared to me that the two guys with the straps on their arms had rifles as well as the two trailing behind on the left, and the tripod or whatever it was looked like an RPG. If I hadn't already read that they were unarmed, I probably would have thought they were.

In any case, this is what happens in war. Don't start a war if you don't want it to happen. This doesn't absolve the shooter or the people telling him to shoot or the people giving permission to shoot from blame by any means regardless of intention, but such things happen even without bad intentions.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/06/2010 01:02:41
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  01:07:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reminds me of an old, old Star Trek episode.

Horrible, horrible things happen in war. This is not an excuse to sanitize war. It is an reason to avoid war.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
Edited by - dglas on 04/06/2010 01:08:14
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  01:34:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

I couldn't tell they were children even from the extra-zoomed in picture near the end which they didn't even have as far as I know.
So what?
Is it okay to kill unarmed civilians as long as no children are in the way? The people in the van are helping wounded people. Some asshole decided that that deserved a death sentence.

If I hadn't already read that they were unarmed, I probably would have thought they were.
Not enough reason to kill them and the four clearly unarmed people that were with them.

In any case, this is what happens in war.
Incompetence and murder happens outside wars as well. There the culprits are prosecuted, sued and if found guilty convicted. As the culprits belong to the US military the murderers will probably get a medal.

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  02:26:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bloody murder...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  02:31:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bloody fucking murder, they are shooting at people tending their wounded!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  03:28:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What a terrible thing to watch. My impression is that at the beginning, there were at least two men on the ground, clearly packing rifles. The reporters' gear could be mistaken (especially in context with the armed men) as weapons. When one reporter ducks down and aims his camera around a corner, it does look like an RPG, maybe even aimed at the chopper. So I would say that the initial rounds fired from the choppers were an instance of horribly mistaken identity.

But from the moment the van drives up and men get out to retrieve the wounded, there is not a hint of hostile intent or weapons on the ground. From that point on, it was all pure murder from the sky, as far as I can tell. Nothing on the ground resembling a weapon is apparent or is mentioned in the audio. Since when does evacuating the wounded by non-uniformed people constitute a hostile act?

Heads should roll.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/06/2010 03:31:15
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1263 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  05:59:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Will heads roll though? In a war situation, it's illegal to fire upon medics, but they must be clearly marked. Also in a war situation you don't always have to be armed to be fired upon anyway.

However this is not still a war situation is it? I have no idea how the military are defining this situation, and how they define the insurgents, whether they are permitted to fire upon unarmed insurgents. These questions are key when defining whether this is technically "murder" or not.

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  08:12:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some thoughts on this ghastly incident.
The panel on the Dylan Ratigan show discussed the newly released video by WikiLeaks and the implications it might have for the United States and rules of engagement in these occupations of ours. As Glenn Greenwald points out, unfortunately this sort of incident is all too common and this kind of footage is seen all the time in the Muslim world and all too rarely in the United States. More from Glenn at Salon:

WikiLeaks releases video of slaughter in Iraq:

Earlier today, I wrote about the cover-up by the U.S. military in Afghanistan of the deaths of five civilians, the Pentagon's forced retraction of its story, and the way in which the U.S. media (as usual) mindlessly disseminated their original false claims.

Those two stories came together perfectly when WikiLeaks today released a video of the U.S. military, from an Apache helicopter, slaughtering civilians in Iraq in 2007 -- including a Reuters photojournalist and his driver -- and then killing and wounding several Iraqis who, minutes later, showed up at the scene to carry away the dead and wounded (including two of their children). The video (posted below) is truly gruesome and difficult even for the most hardened person to watch, but it should be viewed by everyone with responsibility for what the U.S. has done in Iraq and Afghanistan (i.e., every American citizen). Reuters has been attempting for two years to obtain this video through a FOIA request, but has been met with stonewalling by the U.S. military. As Dan Froomkin documents, the videotape demonstrates that military officials made outright false statements about what happened here and were clearly engaged in a cover-up: exactly as is true for the Afghanistan incident I wrote about earlier today, which should be read in conjunction with this post. Read on...

Ratigan promised there would be more discussion on his show throughout the week and I hope that's true. It's a sorry indictment of our media in the United States that it takes an organization like WikiLeaks breaking this instead of the public being shown that this type of tragedy is all too often the result of our military occupations by our sorry excuses for "news" organizations. They're too busy chasing around Tiger Woods or allowing politicians and pundits to fill the airways spouting tired talking points.


Collateral Murder:

5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded. Read on...

And from the comments, I found this one to be spot on:
No, what makes an Obama a war criminal.. Tue, 04/06/2010 - 06:43 — surfjac
..is what makes every American a war criminal. We have not yet investigated or arrested or prosecuted or jailed or put to death anyone involved in the torture of prisoners as well as other war crimes. We (the USA) have laws against these actions, we have signed international agreements not to participate in these actions and we have signed agreements to investigate allegations that surface if we are accused of such action. We have also agreed that only one agency in the world is capable of making the decision that investigation is warranted and that agency is the Red Cross and they have made the decision that investigation is warranted. If they were ever to release the photos and videos that they are afraid of releasing, its likely it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have committed war crimes. Inflaming the Middle East is just as likely but in the governments' rationale, secondary to the actual consequence: arresting and convicting members of the previous administration. I can understand the "fog of war" and I can differentiate between it and war crimes. Just sayin'



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  09:10:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Will heads roll though? In a war situation, it's illegal to fire upon medics, but they must be clearly marked.

These people were civilian. It's not like every innocent bystander who decides to help a wounded person has a white t-shirt with a red cross on it, which he has the time to strap on when someone is bleading to death.

This is just plain evil, no matter the colour of the thirt of the one doing the rescue attempt. It has to stop.

I know that not all American soldiers are like this, but they are representatives of an obviously evil institution which think shit like this is ok, and try to cover it up because of the negative publicity...
I have a lot of more things I'd like to say, but out of respect of Filthy and Dude, I'll hold my peace. They (or the rest of you) will not look kindly on what I want to say. Keeping my mouth shut will also reduce the risk of me getting abducted and shipped to Guantanamo.
Hey, wasn't Gitmo supposed to get dismatled?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/06/2010 09:17:32
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  09:23:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Will heads roll though? In a war situation, it's illegal to fire upon medics, but they must be clearly marked.

These people were civilian. It's not like every innocent bystander who decides to help a wounded person has a white t-shirt with a red cross on it, which he has the time to strap on when someone is bleading to death.

This is just plain evil, no matter the colour of the thirt of the one doing the rescue attempt. It has to stop.

I know that not all American soldiers are like this, but they are representatives of an obviously evil institution which think shit like this is ok, and try to cover it up because of the negative publicity...
I have a lot of more things I'd like to say, but out of respect of Filthy and Dude, I'll hold my peace. They (or the rest of you) will not look kindly on what I want to say. Keeping my mouth shut will also reduce the risk of me getting abducted and shipped to Guantanamo.
Hey, wasn't Gitmo supposed to get dismatled?

Hell Doc, spit it out. Me & Dude are big boys now and we can take it -- I too, am disgusted that Gitmo is still running.

But Vietnam was worse by far......




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  10:05:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These are criminal wars, and every bit of death and destruction that happens is a crime, whether or not they fall within the rules of war. There are thousands of situations like this that fall within the range of complete accident to purely intentional that are unleashed when one begins the best of wars, but I think the point that can't be lost is that these wars, like the war against the people of Vietnam, were launched with the purpose of the terrorizing and impoverishment of the population. Not that those that started these wars wouldn't have been happy with the enslavement of the population, but barring that, they were happy with the death of millions and their civilizations.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  11:03:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Hell Doc, spit it out. Me & Dude are big boys now and we can take it -- I too, am disgusted that Gitmo is still running.

My train of thought started with "every American soldier who takes his own life is a step in the right direction..." and the end station is a lot darker.
Transfer of monetary funds to organizations who use soldiers for target practice is also not off the table. Wouldn't want them to run out of ammo.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2010 :  12:17:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Starman

Originally posted by Machi4velli

I couldn't tell they were children even from the extra-zoomed in picture near the end which they didn't even have as far as I know.
So what?
Is it okay to kill unarmed civilians as long as no children are in the way? The people in the van are helping wounded people. Some asshole decided that that deserved a death sentence.


People are calling them intentional child killers, and I personally couldn't tell even with enhanced video, so I'm only defending them from that charge.

If I hadn't already read that they were unarmed, I probably would have thought they were.
Not enough reason to kill them and the four clearly unarmed people that were with them.


I disagree, I think killing unarmed people when they are actually with armed combatants is entirely unavoidable in war. Unavoidable, not justified per se. Wars should only be undertaken if one is willing to accept the death of some number of innocent civilians. Incidents such as this may happen as a complete mistake, it may happen because the soldier is a thug, it may happen people are not being careful, or what have you, but it happens.

In any case, this is what happens in war.
Incompetence and murder happens outside wars as well. There the culprits are prosecuted, sued and if found guilty convicted.


Who exactly? The shooter, the pilot, the guy asking permission to shoot, the guy giving permission to shoot, the guy sitting beside the shooter? All of them?

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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