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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:11:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I blame "Americans" for electing Bush for his second term. Hell I even blame "you" for his first term.
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But we didn't. Yet somehow he won anyway.
You blame all of us for the actions of one Apache and it's crew? Get off your high fucking horse already. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:49:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Machi4velli
only that I'm not sure who of the involved exactly to blame and how much to blame each person.
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I blame "Americans" for electing Bush for his second term. Hell I even blame "you" for his first term. I hold you all collectively responsible for the shit in Iraq. Since Bush was elected, obviously "you" didn't do enough to convice your fellow citizens not to vote for him.
This is not good for my blood pressure.
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As we've seen, Obama is just as much a thug as Bush, and Clinton, and Bush I, and Reagan....
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:35:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
You blame all of us for the actions of one Apache and it's crew? Get off your high fucking horse already. |
If it only was one Apache and its crew those guys would already be in jail.
Still, you can't blame all Americans for the crimes made and sanctioned by its armed forces, Dr. Mabuse. You and I could just as well have made a bigger effort. You might as well blame us all in the west.
A lot of people will ... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 04/07/2010 12:39:46 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:57:53 [Permalink]
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I'm getting tired of chasing goal posts in Obviousland, but here we go again
Originally posted by Machi4velli
...If the first attack is a complete mistake and the second attack is on instructions from a higher-up, I think their status changes significantly. |
No it does not!
"I was only following orders" is not a valid excuse.
| Weapons did seem to be visible. |
Not when the vehicle arrived, which was the point here.| How could you define morality in a way that isn't completely circular during a war? |
Here you go for starters: Don't cause unnecessary suffering.
Was not difficult. Feel free to expand, but you will not get anymore help from me.
| We can blame whoever we like, send everyone involved to jail for life or hang them or whatever we want to do, but know that it was someone else who put the soldiers into that role, handed them weapons, gave them orders, discipline them if they miss an enemy, and put them in the position for small mistakes to have such terrible consequences. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_responsibility | I'm just saying give them a fair hearing, don't automatically convict them with this. |
Seriously.....
Do you seriously think that I would oppose a fair hearing???
Tell you what, you show me evidence that this tape was edited by James O'Keefe and I will reconsider the murder accusation.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 04/07/2010 12:58:54 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 13:15:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Machi4velli
only that I'm not sure who of the involved exactly to blame and how much to blame each person.
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I blame "Americans" for electing Bush for his second term. Hell I even blame "you" for his first term. I hold you all collectively responsible for the shit in Iraq. Since Bush was elected, obviously "you" didn't do enough to convice your fellow citizens not to vote for him.
This is not good for my blood pressure.
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Seriously? You blame people that voted against Bush because they should have convinced others to not vote for him? You think they have blood on their hands. You are wacked!
Where was this ridiculous outrage when these happened?
http://history1900s.about.com/od/saddamhussein/a/husseincrimes.htm |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 13:22:48 [Permalink]
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"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Friedrich Nietzsche |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 22:28:47 [Permalink]
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| Well if he said it, it must be true. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 00:26:42 [Permalink]
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And now this:
U.S. approves killing of American cleric The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen,
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Both the C.I.A. and the military maintain lists of terrorists linked to Al Qaeda and its affiliates who are approved for capture or killing, former officials said. But because Mr. Awlaki is an American, his inclusion on those lists had to be approved by the National Security Council, the officials said. |
No need for due process here. The man is a terrorist and its not like the CIA or the US military makes mistakes.
What does "conspiracy to commit murder" mean? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 06:21:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
And now this:
U.S. approves killing of American cleric The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen,
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Both the C.I.A. and the military maintain lists of terrorists linked to Al Qaeda and its affiliates who are approved for capture or killing, former officials said. But because Mr. Awlaki is an American, his inclusion on those lists had to be approved by the National Security Council, the officials said. |
No need for due process here. The man is a terrorist and its not like the CIA or the US military makes mistakes.
What does "conspiracy to commit murder" mean?
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The U.S. is at war with Al Qaeda. If this man is part of that group then he should be targeted, American or not. No different than any other war. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 06:26:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The U.S. is at war with Al Qaeda. If this man is part of that group then he should be targeted, American or not. No different than any other war.
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That might apply in a combat situation. However, if he is not in combat, then Constitution and the laws of the United States of America require some kind of due process. Summary execution without trial is not part of that process. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/08/2010 06:30:20 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 13:42:18 [Permalink]
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@Starman, I think it's also "causing unnecessary suffering" to kill an armed combatant. It's all unnecessary, I don't see that a person fighting against an army invading his/her country is doing anything morally wrong (pacifists would disagree I suppose), I don't see that it's any more acceptable to to kill him/her than anyone else.
From the other side, if a war itself is just, support staff in reality is going to be a target. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 13:43:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I blame "Americans" for electing Bush for his second term. Hell I even blame "you" for his first term.
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But we didn't. Yet somehow he won anyway.
You blame all of us for the actions of one Apache and it's crew? Get off your high fucking horse already.
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Your fault for not demanding and convincing others to demand a reform of the electoral system! |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 02:36:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
@Starman, I think it's also "causing unnecessary suffering" to kill an armed combatant. It's all unnecessary, I don't see that a person fighting against an army invading his/her country is doing anything morally wrong (pacifists would disagree I suppose), I don't see that it's any more acceptable to to kill him/her than anyone else.
From the other side, if a war itself is just, support staff in reality is going to be a target.
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Sure! That's why I did not write causing unnecessary suffering to civilians.
As a soldier, you have an obligation to follow lawful(!) orders. Absurd as it might sound that includes causing "necessary suffering" to enemy soldiers that pose an immediate and/or future threat to your side.
In some cases even soldiers that might pose future threat are protected by international law. Eg wounded troops or bailing air crew.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 04/09/2010 02:59:25 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 01:10:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Seriously? You blame people that voted against Bush because they should have convinced others to not vote for him? |
Half of your f*ing country didn't even bother to vote at all. That's a major FAIL for a democracy.
When a country's citizens won't bother to keep themselves informed, and don't participate actively in the responsibility they have when living in a country with fairly free elections, then we can't really honestly say there's a democracy.
You think they have blood on their hands. |
Everyone who let a fucked up idiot (let me spell it out for you in case you don't get it: I'm talking about Bush jr) violate international laws and send military to murder civilians, then yes it's blood on your hands.
Pot, kettle, black... Look in the mirror.
I was outraged at that too. But it was none of my (or yours) f*ing business because it was an Iraqi internal issue. It was the Iraqi peoples prime responsibility to rise against Saddam. And United Nations' to put political pressure on it.
You don't get to swing your military dick in the Middle East just because you feel like it.
| The U.S. is at war with Al Qaeda. If this man is part of that group then he should be targeted, American or not. No different than any other war. |
It's an ideaologic war that morons in USA believe can be waged with guns. That's another major FAIL. USA kept swinging it's dick in the Middle East. Al Quaida decided to stomp on it by hitting strategic targets like WTC, Pentagon, and presumably the White House (too bad the didn't succeed, the would/could have been rid of Bush).
Instead of focussing their effort on how to effectively combat the injustices that feeds organizations like Al Quaida, USA responded with arms and thus gave Al Quaida a second victory.
USA is now effectively alienating the maximum number of countries world-wide; most people think you're a nation of idiots. Al Quaida wins again.
Every time you try to defend American precence in the Middle East, you come off as an imperialist or douche-bag neo-con, and Al Quaida wins.
The only responsible thing is to remove any and all troops from Iraq, pronto. And start persecuting the previous administration for violations against human rights, international laws, Geneva Convention, etc. There's a shitload of dirty launrdy to take care of, and the last thing Obama should do is sweep it under the rug like with the illegal wire-taps.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2010 : 02:57:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was outraged at that too. But it was none of my (or yours) f*ing business because it was an Iraqi internal issue. It was the Iraqi peoples prime responsibility to rise against Saddam. |
Not our business? Really?
So these crimes against humanity are not our business as they happen behind an recognized national border and the main criminal is the chief of state? | And United Nations' to put political pressure on it. |
Yes, but what happen when the UN is a dysfunctional organisation that is unable to stop the terror.
- The UN was not able to stop the 1971 civil war in Pakistan. Invading Indian troops did and East Pakistan became independent as Bangladesh.
- Idi Amin murdered hundreds of thousands of Ugandians. The UN did not stop him. Invading Tanzanian troops did.
- The UN did not stop the Khmer Rouge regime of Cambodia. Invading Vietnamese troops did.
- The UN did not stop Jean-Bedel Bokassa in the Central African Republic. French Foreign Legion forces did.
Was this Indian, Tanzanian, Vietnamese or French business? Of course is was. They are members of the human race aren't they?
| You don't get to swing your military dick in the Middle East just because you feel like it. |
Agreed. We can be pretty sure that concern for oppressed Iraqis was not the issue when Bush the lesser decided to invade. The invasion of Iraq might have had the benefit of removing one murderous madman, but that is not enough to make it legitimate. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Collateral murder? Looks like it.
