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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2010 : 22:43:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Robb
One point I should make is that Jesus says you must believe or have faith to be saved. If faith is believing in the unseen (Heb 11:1) then how can faith save you after you are dead when you meet God face to face?
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I don't know. How can Jesus' mother, his apostles, or anyone he ever ministered to in his lifetime be saved if they met him face to face? Jesus was god incarnate, after all. People saw him raise the dead and walk on water (allegedly). How much faith would it take to believe Jesus was the true messiah if you saw that with your own eyes? And many old testament figures interacted directly with god. Are Elijah, Abraham and Moses saved?
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I need to go to bed but John MacAarthur said this about OT saints:
Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints. And, every time they sacrificed a lamb, and every time they sacrificed a ram, and every time they sacrificed a turtle dove or a pigeon, every time they sacrificed any animal, it was the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ. So, they had to know that there was coming one who would pay the penalty for their sins, one ultimate sacrifice. Christ, alone, can save.
Now, the means for salvation has always been the same: Faith. And, at any given point in the unfolding revelation of the Word of God, salvation came through faith, believing God. Abraham believed God. It was counted him for righteousness. What did he believe? He believed as much as God had revealed. And, God had revealed even by that time that he was sinner and that the only savior was God, and that God would pay the penalty for his sin. Now, he didn't understand all there was to know about Jesus Christ, but he understood enough to know that he was a sinner and needed a savior and God would provide a savior. That is why it says in Hebrews 12, that Moses could foresee Christ, even Moses.
So, I believe, the OT people were saved by faith in God. They believed God’s word as much as was revealed to them, and knew their own sinfulness. In fact, the reason they would carry out the sacrifices, and the reason they would do all the things God told them to do was an outworking of an inward faith. It was not to earn salvation. It was to demonstrate the reality of it. They were saved by faith in Christ. They didn't know who Christ was. And, they didn't know specifically when and how and all of that, but they believed God. They were sinful, and God would have to provide a sacrifice for them. |
Of course this does not address your question about Jesus contemporaries but maybe I can post tomorrow after some sleep.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 23:27:29 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
Free will is freedom over your actions. If you believe in God yet still choose not to follow his guidance then that's your decision. There's no overriding mechanism preventing you from doing this.
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Except that- Free will + omnipotent creator god = paradox.
Those two things cannot coexist as they are mutually exclusive propositions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 07:29:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously.
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Doesn't that make a mockery out of God's commandments? I thought we weren't supposed to commit murder, but here you are saying that, in the end, it doesn't matter.
Makes me wonder why some followers of the various Abrahamic religions keep on insisting that only a belief in God can make people behave morally. These people find it hard to understand why atheists don't run around and rape and kill all the time. Why don't they ask themselves why they themselves don't kill and rape all the time? What do they have to lose? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2010 : 07:34:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
There are others and if you take them as a whole there is good support for this idea. To be fair some say 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 pet 4:6 indicate different. |
So, how can I tell which interpretation is correct?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 18:45:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Robb
You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously.
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Doesn't that make a mockery out of God's commandments? I thought we weren't supposed to commit murder, but here you are saying that, in the end, it doesn't matter. |
It does not matter what sin you have committed, all sin can be forgiven. Gods law can only condemn and never save. Galations 3:24 says:
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. (NIV)
The law leads us to Christ by letting us know what sin is.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 18:50:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
There are others and if you take them as a whole there is good support for this idea. To be fair some say 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 pet 4:6 indicate different. |
So, how can I tell which interpretation is correct?
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Let the holy spirit guide you 
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 21:20:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The law leads us to Christ by letting us know what sin is.
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Christ doesn't care whether or not you've sinned, so how does that make any sense? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 08:09:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Robb
The law leads us to Christ by letting us know what sin is.
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Christ doesn't care whether or not you've sinned, so how does that make any sense?
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Why doesn't Jesus care if we have sinned? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 08:25:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Robb
The law leads us to Christ by letting us know what sin is.
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Christ doesn't care whether or not you've sinned, so how does that make any sense?
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Why doesn't Jesus care if we have sinned?
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A billboard on the highway that I see every day on the way to work says " Christ hates sin but he loves sinners". |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Loopholes
