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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2010 :  16:37:03  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

I'm not finished listening to it yet but I was quite surprised to find Sam is against it!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2010 :  18:21:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

I'm not finished listening to it yet but I was quite surprised to find Sam is against it!


Why?

Sam understands that examining and comprehending the nature of a dogma is not bigotry. Ideas do not get human rights in a rational perspective - humans get human rights. It seems that most people cannot seem to get past this, what should be, a very minor speed-bump to actually get to analyzing the ideas themselves. Anyone who mindlessly squeals "bigot" is deliberately confusing ideas with the people who hold them and are using that deliberate confusion to try to stifle thought and conversation with highly emotional language.

Raza Aslan sure does love to try to shout over people, doesn't he?

ETA:
So far as I can tell, after listening to the whole thing, Reza'a arguments constitute nothing but name-calling. His summation was a shining example of completely and utterly missing the point - probably deliberately.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
Edited by - dglas on 08/18/2010 18:58:37
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2010 :  22:33:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dglas
Sam understands that examining and comprehending the nature of a dogma is not bigotry.
No one is being labeled a bigot for examining, comprehending, or even criticizing Islam. They are being labeled bigots for refusing to examine the beliefs of individual Muslims and projecting the beliefs of radical terrorists onto all Muslims.

Ideas do not get human rights in a rational perspective - humans get human rights.
Yep. And one right humans get in America is the freedom to assemble and worship peaceably. Criticize their ideas all you want, though.

It seems that most people cannot seem to get past this, what should be, a very minor speed-bump to actually get to analyzing the ideas themselves. Anyone who mindlessly squeals "bigot" is deliberately confusing ideas with the people who hold them and are using that deliberate confusion to try to stifle thought and conversation with highly emotional language.
Who's confusing ideas and people? Criticizing ideas is fine. Discriminating against people is bigotry. Now tell me which category those who oppose the building of the mosque fall into.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  08:39:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H.Humbert:
Did you listen to the same interview I did?

The one I listened to was at this link, which is the one in the OP:
http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

Raza Aslan not only accused Harris of bigotry, on many occasions, but he absolutely refused to consider any other possible approach to Harris.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  08:56:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

I'm not finished listening to it yet but I was quite surprised to find Sam is against it!

Sam is very much on the anti-islam (not just criticizing Islam) bandwagon and has been for some time. Whenever Islam comes into play, his critical faculties seem to leave him temporarily.

In other words, I'm not surprised.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  09:12:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tomk80

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

I'm not finished listening to it yet but I was quite surprised to find Sam is against it!

Sam is very much on the anti-islam (not just criticizing Islam) bandwagon and has been for some time. Whenever Islam comes into play, his critical faculties seem to leave him temporarily.

In other words, I'm not surprised.


Here's a surprise for you: I agree with tomk80 here, about Harris being anti-islam anyway. The question is "Why is he anti-islam?" Is it because he hates people with a certain skin colour? I don't think so. That he would seek, with such effort, a way to bridge the is-ought barrier via science to justify claiming that islamic values are verifiably less moral than western values is either an insane obsession or an indication of something other than mere bigotry.

Now he claims he is not a bigot and he points to something other than the people in his arguments. Maybe this should tell us something, if we are willing to consider it.

Or we could just huddle behind the word "bigotry" and assume the case is closed.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
Go to Top of Page

astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  10:01:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What the moderates like Raza do not understand is that standing there screaming "we're not all like that!" does nothing to progress the argument Harris is making.

They are arguing in circles because Raza (and everyone who agrees with him) won't shut up long enough to understand the real issues. Hey Raza.....shut your face and sit down at the table....Mr. Harris is making an important point that is flying right over your head.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
Edited by - astropin on 08/19/2010 10:02:54
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  10:46:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I listened to the program. I come away with two points:
1) Harris hasn't got a single valid argument why the community center should not be built, or is in bad taste.
2) Harris unjustifiably lumps all muslims together, completely ignoring the actual situation even if he is corrected.

Which leads me to conclude that if not a bigot, Harris is at least dumb on this matter.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
Edited by - tomk80 on 08/19/2010 10:47:39
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1447 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2010 :  21:53:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked Sam's comment at the end about bad software running on brains.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2010 :  23:23:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dglas
Ideas do not get human rights in a rational perspective - humans get human rights.


Is it the ideas building the mosque, or do the humans? Seriously, I don't get how you can say that humans get human rights and in the same breath proclaim that they are not allowed to us those rights because the ideas they have don't get rights.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2010 :  02:29:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

I liked Sam's comment at the end about bad software running on brains.

Perhaps. I also found it completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. As I found the whole of Sam's argument in fact irrelevant to the building of the Park 51 muslim community center.

Some parts of the interview were simply astonishing in the thick-headedness of Sam. For example the discussion on the cartoons.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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