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 A road disaster near Baguio
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  00:29:26  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My lady friend Bim yesterday lost a coworker, Constantino Casugay, a bartender at the restaurant where she works. Casugay and 40 others were killed as the Eso-Nice bus they were riding to the coastal resort town of San Fernando lost control, smashed through the front of a building and hurtled 70 meters down a 75 degree mountainside. Only eight of the 49 people aboard survived. The bus was traveling from Baguio on Naguilian Road, a National Highway.



Every day, I hear the squawking and squealing of bad brakes on vehicles such as trucks and buses as they pass on both my street and nearby Marcos Highway. There seems to be no system of vehicular inspection here in the Philippines. Disasters ensue.

One of the few survivors of the "accident" was the bus conductor:
John Patrick Flores, the bus conductor who survived the freak accident, said that upon reaching the descending portion of Naguilian Road in Barangay Banangan, he noticed that the driver, Romeo Subang Jr., had difficulty shifting the vehicle’s gear stick to low gear that caused the packed vehicle to go on full speed.
Notice there is no mention of the deceased injured driver trying to use the freaking brakes. The gear shift is apparently the standard for controlling speeds in the conductor's experience.

Bim has taken the Eso-Nice bus line to San Fernando countless times. I have convinced her to travel there on Victory Liner buses in the future. Victory Liner has a reputation for the best drivers, and for first class maintenance. That firm was founded by a mechanic.

As an aside, note the inadvertent misconception of hospital treatment conveyed by the truly horrible writing in this passage from the above-linked Manila Bulletin article:
Senior Superintendent Wilben Mayor, director of the Benguet Provincial Police Office, said 35 of the fatalities died on the spot while five others succumbed to serious injuries they suffered at the hospital.
This kind of mass death is common on the roads of the Philippines. Though there are laws against operating an unsafe vehicle, such laws in this deeply corrupt society are seen more as opportunities for bribes than as real safety measures.

The political and bureaucratic corruption of the Philippines results in a nation that may as well have few, if any laws at all. Every law is an opportunity for thousands of bribes. Every policeman is a potential street level bag-man. The Philippines is an economic Libertarian's utopia, perhaps, but it is also a common person's dystopia, where lives of the innocent are sacrificed upon the reeking altars of Mammon.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/19/2010 05:47:27

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  04:37:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In further news, it appears that I was wrong that the driver died. Now there is talk of setting up a vehicle inspection center.

Also, the death toll has reached 42 now.

Here's an English language news video about the wreck. Here is another video.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/19/2010 05:11:08
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  06:56:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How unfortunate the the people survived the crash but died of injuries that they received at the hospital. Sounds like they might need some medical training in the Phillipines. :)

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2010 :  07:07:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

How unfortunate the the people survived the crash but died of injuries that they received at the hospital. Sounds like they might need some medical training in the Phillipines. :)
I'm sure that was misreported. Without doubt, those fatal injuries were sustained en route to the hospital.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/19/2010 07:10:21
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2010 :  12:34:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
...but died of injuries that they received at the hospital. Sounds like they might need some medical training in the Phillipines. :)

Ouch! Doesn't sound like a hospital I'd like to visit.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2010 :  21:07:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Notice there is no mention of the deceased injured driver trying to use the freaking brakes. The gear shift is apparently the standard for controlling speeds in the conductor's experience.


Without seeing the exact layout of the road, slope angle, distance of the grade, etc. I can't say for certain, but using brakes may not be the best way to go. Brakes can overheat if applied for too long on a gradient, and then they lose their effectiveness. Gearing down and using the engine for braking is sometimes better.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2010 :  21:10:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

The Philippines is an economic Libertarian's utopia, perhaps, but it is also a common person's dystopia, where lives of the innocent are sacrificed upon the reeking altars of Mammon.


The Sarah Palins of this world would like to institute just such measures in your homeland. Doesn't that make you just feel all warm and fuzzy?

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2010 :  21:58:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

Originally posted by HalfMooner

The Philippines is an economic Libertarian's utopia, perhaps, but it is also a common person's dystopia, where lives of the innocent are sacrificed upon the reeking altars of Mammon.


The Sarah Palins of this world would like to institute just such measures in your homeland. Doesn't that make you just feel all warm and fuzzy?


Just to note you both have set up strawmen of libertarian political philosophy, and of course do not do yourself any favor in doing so.
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  06:01:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chefcrsh

Just to note you both have set up strawmen of libertarian political philosophy, and of course do not do yourself any favor in doing so.


Libertarianism? You mean, like this?


Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  06:24:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You trust anything from Moore?
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  06:31:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chefcrsh

You trust anything from Moore?


Answer the question. Don't wait for the translation.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  07:09:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No I don't see any libertarian political philosophy in that story. I see a county that didn't provide fire service and a separate city that did to residents outside of the city, for a small annual fee. Looks awfully run-of-the-mill government bureaucracy to me. It adds to the straw fallacy. Do you have a penchant for painting only what you want to deride as libertarian? Or are you willing to actually take direct sources (such as perhaps works from Boaz, Freidman, Hayak, Von Mises, Bastiat etc,. or at least specifics of say the libertarian party platform)?
Edited by - chefcrsh on 10/05/2010 07:14:11
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  07:46:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, something got dropped, let me edit - Looks libertarian to me - if you can't afford to pay you get nothing. I will admit it's an extreme form, but there are some who would argue for just that brand.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
Edited by - The Rat on 10/05/2010 07:57:43
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  08:12:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK so you mean you can only argue against your straw man. Ok have fun.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  08:53:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This looks more like a city imposed protection scam to raise revenue from outside the city lines. It doesn't look to me like the fire department was "privatized." While I'm not a big fan of many libertarian ideas which I don't want to go into here, I don't think this was a libertarian idea or even born from libertarianism. After all, most of the literature I have read says they think taxing for essential services like police and fire are okay with them. What this looks like to me is a really stupid policy by a local conservative municipality, again, to raise revenue. The tip off is they call it a fee and not a tax and liken it to an insurance policy. WTF? Even with a boneheaded policy like theirs is, why not put out the fire and then send the bill to cover the cost of using city services? That's not unheard of. Or impose a county tax to cover costs if there isn't a county fire department and there isn't enough revenue to cover county. What's the big deal? A house by house fee is breathtakingly stupid because one house on fire could potentially spread to the whole neighborhood or cause a brush fire and so on...

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you can hang this on libertarian thinking in action. This looks to me more like extortion for protection run more like a city that has borrowed a page from the Mafia playbook. I bet the stupidity of the policy will now be under review...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  16:44:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.city-data.com/city/South-Fulton-Tennessee.html

Seems like an average rural poor community according to past two elections between 30 and 40 % dem, so right leaning. But closest million person city is Chicago, are these 27K income families to bear the burden of costs for fire prevention for every other poor person outside of the city (and thus taxable) limits? Many (I would guess most) rural dwellers sacrifice city conveniences for the location.

My aunt used to live in a county area in AZ and had to haul in water by tank truck, had to have electricity run at her own cost, dug her own honey pot [septic system], had to haul her [solid] waste to the nearest municipal dump and pay dump fees. Of course she had no city taxes to deal with.

I live semi rural now, and have to have bottled gas delivered, often have power outages in storms, and have to haul trash to a collection centre (where in the past it was picked up from the corridor).

This has been and is a reasonable system for rural dwellers.

As to the decision to let it burn, I have no idea (nor does anyone) what state it was in when they arrived. But I do know that one strategy for fire departments is to let it burn, if a house is to far consumed and not threatening other houses. Given this was somewhere outside the city, and response times, it is possible that it was too late to put out teh fire and the owner is claiming otherwise for sympathy...or perhaps as was suggested because he did not insure.

Truth is we (and Moore) have no real facts to make any conclusions about the right or wrong of this story. That wont stop many from doing so though. The same is true of the OP. OK thats human nature I guess, to speculate and make stories up, but lets not go to far and blame things on philosophies we do not appear to understand, at least not without ample evidence those philosophies are the cause.

ETA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obion_County,_Tennessee

The county population is about 14X that of the city, and according to Wikipedia the seat & muni of the county isn't even in this particular city. The county residents also appear about 15% wealthier by income than the South Fulton residents. Tax the poor to pay the less poor?
Edited by - chefcrsh on 10/06/2010 00:09:00
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