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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  04:17:13  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An interesting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man
The main point of the article seems to be
Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability. Extravagant welfare programs, the near impossibility of getting fired on the public dole and an increasingly complicated tax code are all products of the same deeply rooted concept that man cannot provide for himself.

Liberals simply believe that man is not good enough. Indomitable spirits be damned! Thatís why most college students are liberal. Living on a diet of Kraft Dinners and Mountain Dew would make anyone yearn for somebody else to step in and take the reins. Instead of looking to a dietician they reach for Uncle Sam (and a keg).



Thoughts?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

Edited by - Ebone4rock on 10/13/2010 05:13:32

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  04:24:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

An intersting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man
The main point of the article seems to be
Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability. Extravagant welfare programs, the near impossibility of getting fired on the public dole and an increasingly complicated tax code are all products of the same deeply rooted concept that man cannot provide for himself.

Liberals simply believe that man is not good enough. Indomitable spirits be damned! Thatís why most college students are liberal. Living on a diet of Kraft Dinners and Mountain Dew would make anyone yearn for somebody else to step in and take the reins. Instead of looking to a dietician they reach for Uncle Sam (and a keg).



Thoughts?
Tripe!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  05:03:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

An intersting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man

Thoughts?
An article on the Fox News site in broad strokes painting liberals as weak and dependent. Yep. Tripe is a good description. So is conservative pablum.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  05:45:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Liberals argue that some people cannot be self-reliant and deserve public help, and that the motto of the United States of America is not sulum vir pro sui but is instead e pluribus unum.

And if the government's job is not to provide stability (at least in the form of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), then what is it?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  06:17:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Liberals argue that some people cannot be self-reliant and deserve public help, and that the motto of the United States of America is not sulum vir pro sui but is instead e pluribus unum.

And if the government's job is not to provide stability (at least in the form of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), then what is it?


Agreed....to a point. There is a fine line between providing stability and opportunity and creating a nanny state. Taking care of those who cannot care for themselves is one thing but for instance government involving themselves in such things (among other things) as how my credit card billing works (which there is no reason to be involved in) only costs me more money and is counter-productive. I really do think that the liberal end of the spectrum thinks that the government should take care of people much more than is necessary and is detrimental to those who are willing and able to care for themselves.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  06:17:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Liberals argue that some people cannot be self-reliant and deserve public help, and that the motto of the United States of America is not sulum vir pro sui but is instead e pluribus unum.

And if the government's job is not to provide stability (at least in the form of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), then what is it?

A vehicle to enable the friends of conservative scumbags in the ripping off of the populace?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  06:42:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Dave W.

Liberals argue that some people cannot be self-reliant and deserve public help, and that the motto of the United States of America is not sulum vir pro sui but is instead e pluribus unum.

And if the government's job is not to provide stability (at least in the form of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), then what is it?

A vehicle to enable the friends of conservative scumbags in the ripping off of the populace?






Liberalism also aids in the ripping off of the populace.
Lets use the credit card billing example I provided in my last response.

Last winter new credit card regulation was passed Credit card rules.
These rules are geared toward helping the fuckers who don't pay their bills on time. Fuck them. I (a guy who pays his bills on time) now have monthly fees to pay and decreased benefits (airline miles) and will no longer be using the cards as much as I previously had. Why am I being ripped off to protect those who are irresponsible with their credit cards? Fuck the irresponsible. They should have to pay for their msitakes, not me!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  07:54:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Dave W.

Liberals argue that some people cannot be self-reliant and deserve public help, and that the motto of the United States of America is not sulum vir pro sui but is instead e pluribus unum.

And if the government's job is not to provide stability (at least in the form of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), then what is it?

A vehicle to enable the friends of conservative scumbags in the ripping off of the populace?






Liberalism also aids in the ripping off of the populace.
Lets use the credit card billing example I provided in my last response.

Last winter new credit card regulation was passed Credit card rules.
These rules are geared toward helping the fuckers who don't pay their bills on time. Fuck them. I (a guy who pays his bills on time) now have monthly fees to pay and decreased benefits (airline miles) and will no longer be using the cards as much as I previously had. Why am I being ripped off to protect those who are irresponsible with their credit cards? Fuck the irresponsible. They should have to pay for their msitakes, not me!
This is true, but only up to a point. Banks issue credit cards and they will get their money, and they don't much care who gives it to them. And the last decade or so has shown us how they operate.

I used to use credit cards, but no more. They are, in my opinion, one of the biggest rip-offs extant. As for the irresponsible, they will lose however they get bailed out. It goes with the territory.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  08:10:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Liberalism also aids in the ripping off of the populace.
Lets use the credit card billing example I provided in my last response.

Last winter new credit card regulation was passed Credit card rules.
These rules are geared toward helping the fuckers who don't pay their bills on time. Fuck them. I (a guy who pays his bills on time) now have monthly fees to pay and decreased benefits (airline miles) and will no longer be using the cards as much as I previously had. Why am I being ripped off to protect those who are irresponsible with their credit cards? Fuck the irresponsible. They should have to pay for their msitakes, not me!

I don't know, but it seems to me that the new law protects to quite a number of practices that even responsible credit card owners could be a victim to. A lot of the things mentioned are downright criminal, such as extremely quick changes in interest rates and due dates for payments that change without notice.

To make an analogy, the objections against the new law seem to me like stating that the government making laws against theft is introducing a nanny state. And complaining that your bread is now more expensive, because the baker isn't allowed anymore to go out stealing in the night.

But then, in the Netherlands we basically only work with debit cards. Credit cards are for losers.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  09:04:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tomk80

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Liberalism also aids in the ripping off of the populace.
Lets use the credit card billing example I provided in my last response.

Last winter new credit card regulation was passed Credit card rules.
These rules are geared toward helping the fuckers who don't pay their bills on time. Fuck them. I (a guy who pays his bills on time) now have monthly fees to pay and decreased benefits (airline miles) and will no longer be using the cards as much as I previously had. Why am I being ripped off to protect those who are irresponsible with their credit cards? Fuck the irresponsible. They should have to pay for their msitakes, not me!

I don't know, but it seems to me that the new law protects to quite a number of practices that even responsible credit card owners could be a victim to. A lot of the things mentioned are downright criminal, such as extremely quick changes in interest rates and due dates for payments that change without notice.

To make an analogy, the objections against the new law seem to me like stating that the government making laws against theft is introducing a nanny state. And complaining that your bread is now more expensive, because the baker isn't allowed anymore to go out stealing in the night.

But then, in the Netherlands we basically only work with debit cards. Credit cards are for losers.


I never had a problem with the credit card companies ripping me off before the new rules went into effect. Were they ripping off the irresponsible? Probably, but I don't care about the irresponsible.


This example is merely to illustrate that when things get over regulated that many times it can be the people who are responsible with their finances who are hurt.

Is it at all fair that the responsible are punished for the negligence of the irresponsible?

The point that I get out of the article is that we have to take care of ourselves and our families before we go asking the government to regulate so many things because there will always be adverse effects....and with each regulation comes an equal loss of freedom.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  11:26:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

An interesting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man
The main point of the article seems to be
Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability. Extravagant welfare programs, the near impossibility of getting fired on the public dole and an increasingly complicated tax code are all products of the same deeply rooted concept that man cannot provide for himself.

Liberals simply believe that man is not good enough. Indomitable spirits be damned! Thatís why most college students are liberal. Living on a diet of Kraft Dinners and Mountain Dew would make anyone yearn for somebody else to step in and take the reins. Instead of looking to a dietician they reach for Uncle Sam (and a keg).



Thoughts?
Hahahahahahaha!!! Are you kidding me? Does that guy do standup?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  11:36:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

An interesting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man
The main point of the article seems to be
Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability. Extravagant welfare programs, the near impossibility of getting fired on the public dole and an increasingly complicated tax code are all products of the same deeply rooted concept that man cannot provide for himself.

Liberals simply believe that man is not good enough. Indomitable spirits be damned! Thatís why most college students are liberal. Living on a diet of Kraft Dinners and Mountain Dew would make anyone yearn for somebody else to step in and take the reins. Instead of looking to a dietician they reach for Uncle Sam (and a keg).



Thoughts?
Hahahahahahaha!!! Are you kidding me? Does that guy do standup?


Don't laugh too hard Kil. I share this fellows sentiments about extreme liberalism. I don't like it that I see it that way but I do. I am looking to my liberal invisifriends to help clarify what liberals are actually thinking rather than counting on the "broad brush" technique that this article's author is using.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  12:08:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

An interesting opinion piece I found this morning.
Is Libereralism Killing The Manly Man
The main point of the article seems to be
Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability. Extravagant welfare programs, the near impossibility of getting fired on the public dole and an increasingly complicated tax code are all products of the same deeply rooted concept that man cannot provide for himself.

Liberals simply believe that man is not good enough. Indomitable spirits be damned! Thatís why most college students are liberal. Living on a diet of Kraft Dinners and Mountain Dew would make anyone yearn for somebody else to step in and take the reins. Instead of looking to a dietician they reach for Uncle Sam (and a keg).



Thoughts?
Hahahahahahaha!!! Are you kidding me? Does that guy do standup?


Don't laugh too hard Kil. I share this fellows sentiments about extreme liberalism. I don't like it that I see it that way but I do. I am looking to my liberal invisifriends to help clarify what liberals are actually thinking rather than counting on the "broad brush" technique that this article's author is using.

Liberals donít believe in the ultimate concept of self-reliance, which is why they look to the government for stability.


When you open with a strawman like the above as your premise, then all of the conclusions built on it will be false. I mean really!!!

When conservatives start turning down entitlements like social security, loans for eduction, government subsidies, grants and pork for their districts and gosh, I could probably go on for pages, then I will take this bullshit seriously. They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. Let them strap on six shooters and yell "Yee Haw" waving their cowboy hats from the back of limo's paid for by us, because everyone knows if you yell "Yee Haw" than you are still a man...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  12:45:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by [b]Kil[/bWhen you open with a strawman like the above as your premise, then all of the conclusions built on it will be false. I mean really!!!

When conservatives start turning down entitlements like social security, loans for eduction, government subsidies, grants and pork for their districts and gosh, I could probably go on for pages, then I will take this bullshit seriously. They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. Let them strap on six shooters and yell "Yee Haw" waving their cowboy hats from the back of limo's paid for by us, because everyone knows if you yell "Yee Haw" than you are still a man...




Agreed it is a strawman which is why I am not taking it too seriously but I do think it is a good catalyst for discussion. Please take into consideration my position which is that of an average ordinary working class guy who wants nothing more than to take care of his family by working hard and not get fucked by people who do not want to work hard. There are lots of people out there like me. This is the way many of us we see things. I am not familiar with the author of this piece so I cannot say for sure whether he is a limo ridin' yee hawer or not.

BTW you are building your own strawman here.
[i]originally posted by Kil
When conservatives start turning down entitlements like social security, loans for eduction, government subsidies, grants and pork for their districts and gosh, I could probably go on for pages, then I will take this bullshit seriously. They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. Let them strap on six shooters and yell "Yee Haw" waving their cowboy hats from the back of limo's paid for by us, because everyone knows if you yell "Yee Haw" than you are still a man...




Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  12:57:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

I really do think that the liberal end of the spectrum thinks that the government should take care of people much more than is necessary and is detrimental to those who are willing and able to care for themselves.
Of course it's detrimental. For every dollar the government spends on someone who can't fend for themselves, you (as a taxpayer) lose a few millionths of a penny, and even a millionth of a penny out of your pocket is detrimental to you. But that's the cost of living in a society, instead of a hermitage. The fractions of a penny add up after a while, but we're sharing the burden. That's the point.

Especially since not everyone who can take care of themselves now will be able to do so for the rest of their lives. Unexpected injuries (for just one example) can destroy livelihoods and savings, but it's not right to allow people who were once self-sufficient to die on the streets because they can no longer afford their medical care. Social Darwinism is morally repugnant.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2010 :  13:02:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Please take into consideration my position which is that of an average ordinary working class guy who wants nothing more than to take care of his family by working hard and not get fucked by people who do not want to work hard.
It's the people who can't work hard who liberals are concerned about. I don't think you'll see any arguments against the idea that we need more and better protections from people willing to commit Welfare/Medicare/whatever fraud.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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