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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  04:37:59  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, not really. We've all known, or at least suspected that Bill Dembski is a YEC nincompoop. And now here he is, convicted out of his own mouth.
have to commend him on his honesty: William Dembski has come right out and plainly said that he believes in a 'literal' interpretation of the bible, and that his god actually created the earth in 6 days culminating in the conjuring into existence of Adam and Eve.

In writing The End of Christianity today, I would also underscore three points: (1) As a biblical inerrantist, I accept the full verbal inspiration of the Bible and the conventional authorship of the books of the Bible. Thus, in particular, I accept Mosaic authorship of Genesis (and of the Pentateuch) and reject the Documentary Hypothesis. (2) Even though I introduce in the book a distinction between kairos (God's time) and chronos (the world's time), the two are not mutually exclusive. In particular, I accept that the events described in Genesis 1- 11 happened in ordinary space-time, and thus that these chapters are as historical as the rest of the Pentateuch. (3) I believe that Adam and Eve were real people, that as the initial pair of humans they were the progenitors of the whole human race, that they were specially created by God, and thus that they were not the result of an evolutionary process from primate or hominid ancestors. (William A. Dembski)"

Sooo, where does this overdue confession leave Intelligent Design, a conjecture that claims to represent science and not religion? Up the well-known creek with no philosophical oars to row back down.

I might start monitoring Uncommon Descent again. They're liable to evolve into a full-fledged fundie hootenanny like ICR and I'd sort'a like to observe the Draculaesque transformation.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  04:59:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

I might start monitoring Uncommon Descent again.
It's a lot easier on the ol' noggin to monitor the After the Bar Closes Uncommonly Dense super-thread. It's like having your daily input of stupid pre-chewed for you, but with immunity-boosting derision mixed in. If you still want your dumb straight from the source, they provide links.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  07:08:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by filthy

I might start monitoring Uncommon Descent again.
It's a lot easier on the ol' noggin to monitor the After the Bar Closes Uncommonly Dense super-thread. It's like having your daily input of stupid pre-chewed for you, but with immunity-boosting derision mixed in. If you still want your dumb straight from the source, they provide links.
I used to visit there quite often but haven't in a long time. Now I can't seem to get registered; something to do with my e mail server not accepting cookies. I'll get my son-in-law to check it out, as I'd kind of like to get active again. Thanks for the reminder.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  07:29:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is far from surprising. He has previously stated:
Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.


Not that I think that all this matters. I accept that people can be both religious and scientists. Also, ID fails without any religious affiliations, anyway.

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  08:52:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. Seems like Dembski actually became an YEC quite recently (at least officially). As recently as 2009, he claimed that there was strong evidence for an old Earth. Read more at PT.

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Dave W.
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USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  13:35:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It looks like Dembski's being strong-armed. Claim to be a YEC or lose yer job. It's no wonder that the "there are lots of ID-friendly scientists who won't speak out for fear of losing their positions" meme is so strong amongst that crew, since they engage in that sort of extortion with each other over religious questions.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  14:30:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I expect the new accommodationist meme will be that Dembski retreated further into religious fundamentalism because Richard Dawkins is too strident.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2010 :  02:36:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In depth from The Panda's Thumb:
Dembski Coming Clean - He’s a Creationist YEC
By Jack Krebs on October 20, 2010 8:44 PM | 172 Comments | No TrackBacks
Added 10/22/10: I have been persuaded that it’s not accurate to say that Dembski’s statements in the post below necessarily mean that he is now endorsing a young earth. See my comment here.

=============

In 2000, Dembski wrote an essay, ID Coming Clean that, among other things, got me interested in the whole ID movement issue. In that essay, Dembski “came clean” about his stance on young-earth creationism:

By creationism one typically understands what is also called “young earth creationism,” and what advocates of that position refer to alternately as “creation science” or “scientific creationism.” According to this view the opening chapters of Genesis are to be read literally as a scientifically accurate account of the world’s origin and subsequent formation. What’s more, it is the creation scientist’s task to harmonize science with Scripture.

Given this account of creationism, am I a creationist? No. I do not regard Genesis as a scientific text. I have no vested theological interest in the age of the earth or the universe. I find the arguments of geologists persuasive when they argue for an earth that is 4.5 billion years old. What’s more, I find the arguments of astrophysicists persuasive when they argue for a universe that is approximately 14 billion years old. I believe they got it right. Even so, I refuse to be dogmatic here. I’m willing to listen to arguments to the contrary. Yet to date I’ve found none of the arguments for a young earth or a young universe convincing. Nature, as far as I’m concerned, has an integrity that enables it to be understood without recourse to revelatory texts.

Trying to hang on to his gig at Southwestern Baptist seems like a pretty good hypothesis.


Fast forward ten years: Dembski once again comes clean, and times have changed. This time he clearly states he is a Biblical inerrantist, and as such he is a creationist and he does think that Genesis is historically true.

Let’s look at what Dembski has to say now.

[Edit remark: changed “evangelical” to “fundamentalist”, in response to a remark by Wes Elsberry.]
Towards the end of last year, 2009, Dembski wrote a book, The End of Christianity, that attempted to reconcile the theology of the Fall, and its relationship with sin and death, to an old earth. In a comment at Uncommon Descent in October 2009, he pointed out that “As I note in THE END OF CHRISTIANITY, I would be a young-earth creationist in a heart-beat if I didn’t see the evidence for an old earth as so strong.” (Link)

However, given that Dembski teaches at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, his book aroused a lot of resistance from his YEC colleagues. One particular thing that stood out was that Dembski argued that the evidence for the Flood being a local event was strong, writing “Noah’s flood, though presented as a global event, is probably best understood as historically rooted in a local event.”

This was enough to get Southwestern Seminary’s president Paige Patterson involved. According to an article at the Florida Baptist Witness,

Patterson said that when Dembski’s questionable statements came to light, he convened a meeting with Dembski and several high-ranking administrators at the seminary. At that meeting, Dembski was quick to admit that he was wrong about the flood, Patterson said.

“Had I had any inkling that Dr. Dembski was actually denying the absolute trustworthiness of the Bible, then that would have, of course, ended his relationship with the school,” he said.

Oh no! Threatened with being expelled!

So he spins like a weather vane at the least change of the breezes, eh?

Some years back, I think during the Kitzmillar trial -- which Dembski bugged out on, leaving poor, old Behe slowly turning in the wind like a hanged horse thief -- I stated to the effect that ID was dead, albeit the corpse was still lively. That might have been premature at the time, but it's looking a lot more likely now. Not even the mendacious boneheads at the Discovery Institute like blatant hypocrisy when it's one of their own and goes public.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 10/23/2010 02:39:13
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2010 :  08:08:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never let it be said that, unlike FOXnooze, I am anything but fair and balanced. Here's Dembski's side of the story:
“Coming clean” about YEC?

William Dembski

Jack Krebs at Panda’s Thumb claims that I have “come clean” as a young earth creationist. There are a couple of problems with his announcement: (1) It’s not true, and (2) there’s nothing in my words that he quoted to justify his claim.

Krebs seems to think that my recent statements clarifying my views represent either a compromise or a “retraction” of my earlier views. But that is false. It’s a matter of public record that I am an evangelical Christian. I have publicly defended the complete trustworthiness and inerrancy of Scripture; but my comments in The End of Christianity led some to believe otherwise. The purpose of my recent statement was to make it clear that I believe in biblical inerrancy.
Read the whole thing and tell me what this even means. I have yet to figure out the difference between a belief in "biblical inerrancy" and young earth creationism. It looks to me like one goes along the other, hand-in-hand.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2010 :  09:31:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
Read the whole thing and tell me what this even means. I have yet to figure out the difference between a belief in "biblical inerrancy" and young earth creationism. It looks to me like one goes along the other, hand-in-hand.


There is allegedly a difference between inerrancy and literacy.
Robin at AtBC explains:
The key is in his use of the term inerrantist. There is a big difference between that and a literalist in theological circles.

The literalist position that the bible is both inerrant (most use the word infallible) AND historically accurate Thus to a literalist, the story in Genesis *literally* means that everything in the universe, including life on this planet, was created in 6, 24 hour days. However a literalist would be quick to agree that the quote, "ye are the salt of the earth" does NOT mean that that Jesus was saying that the people were literally piles of salt.

The inerrantist position is that the entirety of the scriptures is inerrant - that is, the teachings of scriptures are accurately presented, however to fully understand them you need to understand how to accurately translate them. This means that while the message and morale teaching of the story is infallible, the words can, at times, be poetic. The inerrantist position is summed up in Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but the fact is that among conservative Christians and fundamentalists, it's a big difference.


So... it is inerrant, it's just hard to get the correct interpretation...?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2010 :  13:37:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy (CSBI) includes:
Article XXII. We affirm that Genesis 1-11 is factual, as is the rest of the book.

We deny that the teachings of Genesis 1-11 are mythical and that scientific hypotheses about earth history or the origin of humanity may be invoked to overthrow what Scripture teaches about creation.
That seems clearly contradictory to Dembski's statement, "Nature, as far as I’m concerned, has an integrity that enables it to be understood without recourse to revelatory texts," since the CSBI insists on being the final vettor of "origins" truth. Unless he simply insists upon a No True Scotsman and says that properly understood Nature will always agree with the Bible.

In other words, Hawks, the Bible is inerrant, and it's just hard to get the correct interpretation of nature.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2010 :  07:29:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno. In Dembski's retort he tiptoes through more tulips than Tiny Tim's ukulele. Or so it seems to me, anyway, but that's the way apologetics work; talk a great deal without saying much of anything.

Never forget; the Wedge Document inspires and drives their every thought and ambition.


The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat scientific materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions".[2] The strategy also aims to "affirm the reality of God."[3] Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4] The wedge metaphor is attributed to Phillip E. Johnson and depicts a metal wedge splitting a log to represent an aggressive public relations program to create an opening for the supernatural in the public’s understanding of science.[5]

Intelligent design is the religious[6][7] belief that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not a naturalistic process such as natural selection. Implicit in the intelligent design doctrine is a redefining of science and how it is conducted. Wedge strategy proponents are dogmatically opposed to materialism,[9][10] naturalism,[9][11] and evolution,[12][13][14][15] and have made the removal of each from how science is conducted and taught an explicit goal.[16][17]

The strategy was originally brought to the public's attention when the Wedge Document was leaked on the Web. The Wedge strategy forms the governing basis of a wide range of Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2010 :  20:52:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
In other words, Hawks, the Bible is inerrant, and it's just hard to get the correct interpretation of nature.

Ah, yes. If the map doesn't accurately describe the topography, the terrain is to blame.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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