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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2010 :  15:15:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't sweat it, Kil.
And you are right, there are autistic people who are fairly high-functioning, apart from being socially awkward. But I wasn't thinking about them, the standard image of an autistic child is the one that simply can't take care of itself.
My younger brother is diagnosed as high-functioning autistic. He can manage fairly well on his own, has an assistant visiting him about an hour/week. He's really not much of a burden, but being unable to hold a real job, he isn't very productive either. But he is very apt at being game master of role playing games.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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skepticalover
New Member

12 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2010 :  23:46:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticalover's Homepage Send skepticalover a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always been EXTRA skeptical about most vaccines, this is a great post.

Nail polish without all the carcinogens - http://www.metapolish.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2010 :  01:10:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by skepticalover

I've always been EXTRA skeptical about most vaccines, this is a great post.
Most vaccines? You know that vaccines have been one of the greatest medical successes ever, right? No more smallpox. No more polio. Things like measles and whooping cough are only starting to make a comeback because some parents have bought into an irrational fear of vaccines being promoted by a few quacks and foolish celebrities. Of course, nothing in medicine is without some risk, but the demonstrable benefit of vaccine's far outweigh the risks.

I'd love to know your reasons for being "EXTRA skeptical" about vaccines?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2010 :  14:07:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by skepticalover

I've always been EXTRA skeptical about most vaccines, this is a great post.

It's the adults who are unable to determine what is the true relevant information and pertinent data from the chatter of misinformation and intentionally erroneous 'facts' presented who will have to live with the consequences of their choices. Actually that wouldn't be so bad if that was the only fallout but it's their children and children's playmates who will suffer most and the biggest consequences. They are the ones who will suffer the diseases and long term fallout, possibly death, from the infections that they are not protected from that they happen to catch. That is what is occurring more and more now.

If in fact Thimerosal was first used before 1930 and is THE cause of this autism epidemic, why is it only in the last decade or so that we're seeing a big rise of Autistic children?

It is a fact that Mercury is released from the burning of coal. Quite a bit actually, which ends up in the environment and waterways. In the USA alone >50% of electrical power is fueled by coal fired plants. I wonder if it's likely that this mercury is involved, a far greater exposure would be coming from fish than vaccines. Fish eaten by a mother before, during pregnancy and fish eaten by any child once it starts eating fish. Exposure to the mercury in fish in my mind is a way greater health threat that what is received in any vaccination/s.
In a way, I'm really surprised that parents can get so obsessed about the mercury in vaccines, to the point that they would rather deny the real value that vaccines give and not react at all about the real warnings and advice to limit fish consumption.

I would love to see the data, of mercury levels in fish from 1920's to today, the amount of mercury released by coal fired plants and the autism rate over the same time frame.


People in general can be pretty gullible and believe some of the most ridiculous shit quite readily. Luck in a rabbits foot, Ghosts, UFO's, effective homeopathic drugs, Big Foot, over the centuries hundreds of invented god's and Deities, it's endless. All being human, we are all possible victims of woo. Choose the woo you'll believe carefully, it can have dire/deadly fallout not just for you but others. SS
SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2011 :  13:21:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not only autism is blamed on vaccines.

In a number of cases in Sweden, and more so in Finland,
where the National Institute for Health suspected the
H1N1-flu vaccine Pandemrix causing narcolepsy
among children.

After some investigation Swedish regulators found no link between the immunization and narcolepsy.

Now evidence is surfacing in China that maybe it isn't the vaccine, but the virus itself that triggers narcolepsy.
http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/23/the-curious-link-between-h1n1-flu-and-narcolepsy/
A swell in new cases of narcolepsy in China followed seasonal patterns of flu, including H1N1, according to a recent study led by Dr. Emmanuel Mignot of the Stanford University School of Medicine. The new cases appear to be associated with flu infection itself, not with flu vaccinations.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Elmo the Clown
New Member

31 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  06:00:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Elmo the Clown's Homepage Send Elmo the Clown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

<fact mode>
Well, we know that the American government are lying to the people. About many things...
<irony- and sarcasm-mode>
So why not about vaccines and autism. So it has to be a conspiracy. Is it paranoia if they really are out to get you?

Just sayin'.



Give the man 1/2 a prize. Trust the government?

But no, Dr. M... They aren't out "to get me", but could probably give a shit less if their lies, or their cronies, got me with bad information, or bad drugs, or what not..... They aren't after much other than wealth and power.

Support a clown, buy a luury cruise from www.ChicLuxuryCruises.com (or any cruise...)
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  07:48:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mab wrote:
If my wife gets knocked up, I will insist on abortion.
What criteria parents use, I can only imagine.
This was probably not the best way to put this. I assumed that your wife knows how strongly you feel about this, and that she is in total agreement with you about it, and that was probably a prerequisite for you two getting married, since obviously whether or not to have children is a huge issue. But that was an assumption. If indeed you and your wife came to this agreement before you tied the knot, there is no need for you to insist that she get an abortion because you know she's already made that decision before even getting pregnant.

The only reason I bring this up is because if, say, a couple hadn't even discussed the matter yet and the woman came and said she was pregnant, I think it would be pretty douchey for the guy to insist on abortion.

From a community point of view, an autistic child will never be a productive member of society. But the same goes (in varying degrees) for other defects and crippling ailments from child-decease for which we give vaccines.
This is not only not true, but it seems rather irrelevant to the point you are making. Do you honestly think parents love and desire for a child is based on how productive a member of society the child will be? Hell, some people's kids grow up to take on jobs which are neutral or even destructive to society, and at least in the USA, if the kid is making a lot of money, the parents are proud of them! It seems that the real concern when it comes to parents is how well they will be able to relate to the child in a meaningful way as well as provide for the child.

Maybe some day, we will find a way to diagnose autism in foetuses. Then parents will have the option to abort the pregnancy and start over. Don't you think at least some parents would take that option?
Certain some would. I for one wouldn't. I'd only opt for abortion for things like Tay Sachs, which is a hideously degenerative disease that kills a child within the first few years of life. People live in Austism just fine. It is a huge challenge in life, but one can live a perfectly meaningful life with it none-the-less. As neither my husband or I are likely carriers of the Tay Sachs gene, we didn't bother with any testing for genetic abnormalities in Lysistrata or our current pregnancy. Part of the reason we opted for no testing is because, at least currently, some tests such as amniocentesis carry a slight risk of miscarriage.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 09/05/2011 07:53:09
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  11:31:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Mab wrote:
If my wife gets knocked up, I will insist on abortion.
What criteria parents use, I can only imagine.
This was probably not the best way to put this. I assumed that your wife knows how strongly you feel about this, and that she is in total agreement with you about it, and that was probably a prerequisite for you two getting married, since obviously whether or not to have children is a huge issue. But that was an assumption.
It was a correct assumption.

If indeed you and your wife came to this agreement before you tied the knot, there is no need for you to insist that she get an abortion because you know she's already made that decision before even getting pregnant.
I can't account for her changing her mind about it.

The only reason I bring this up is because if, say, a couple hadn't even discussed the matter yet and the woman came and said she was pregnant, I think it would be pretty douchey for the guy to insist on abortion.
That would be douchey. Good thing I'm not that kind of person. My wife knew my conditions for the vows.


From a community point of view, an autistic child will never be a productive member of society. But the same goes (in varying degrees) for other defects and crippling ailments from child-decease for which we give vaccines.
This is not only not true, but it seems rather irrelevant to the point you are making. Do you honestly think parents love and desire for a child is based on how productive a member of society the child will be?
And I already wrote that I don't want children, so I couldn't even pretend to know what criteria parents have. Don't chastise me for something I never said.

Regardless of what parents think, there's an external world outside the core family in which the child must live. It's in that world's best interest having all children vaccinated against preventable deceases which are crippling or potentially deadly. Herd immunity is vital in order to protect those who cannot take the vaccine themselves.


Maybe some day, we will find a way to diagnose autism in foetuses. Then parents will have the option to abort the pregnancy and start over. Don't you think at least some parents would take that option?
Certain some would.
Thank you for agreeing with me.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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james22
New Member

1 Post

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  03:26:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send james22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it's not a God thing. The anti vaccination crowd is new age, Christian, and also includes non-believers. What they share is a suspicion that Big Pharma and other nefarious interests are covering up the truth because they make more money by lying.

http://www.trustmydrugs.com

http://www.trustmydrugs.com/forzest.aspx
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  06:56:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problems with necessary vaccines.

There are times that big pharma goes too far in advocating which vaccines must be manditory.

My main gripe here is Illinois' insistence on the chicken pox vaccine.

I did some research before drug companies were indemnified over vaccines. (Oddly enough, those pages disappeared post-indemnification.)

I was checking out the instances per 100,000 for bad side effects of a severe nature.

I found out that the vaccine was worse than the disease.

Chicken pox was killing 100 children in the US per year.
The vaccine had a 3,500 per 100,000 chance for severe to life threatening side effects.

I felt that the vaccine should have been optional, not required. Allow people to make informed judgement calls on healthcare where there the probability of harm is least.

Polio, MMR, and other major diseases that have probabilities of very bad results should be manditory.

Chicken pox does not rise to that level.

The anti-vaxxers are primarily made up of those who

1) will accept the word of a celebrity over medical advice
or
2) distrust big business and the government to the point they believe that they are capable of pulling off major outrages in the name of profits


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  07:21:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

The vaccine had a 3,500 per 100,000 chance for severe to life threatening side effects.
Which chicken pox vaccine was this, exactly? MMRV's most common "severe" side effect (seizure due to fever) only occurs 80 times out of 100,000 injections, from what I can find.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  09:47:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

The vaccine had a 3,500 per 100,000 chance for severe to life threatening side effects.
Which chicken pox vaccine was this, exactly? MMRV's most common "severe" side effect (seizure due to fever) only occurs 80 times out of 100,000 injections, from what I can find.


The page had disappeared from the Smith/Kline website about 5-6 years ago.

If all children have these shots, then we are talking about 4000 severe side effects per year. (Childstat.org. 2010 US Population 0-5 year olds = 25 million. assuming even distribution per age within group = 5 million eligible for the shot each year. 5 million doses / 100,000 = 50 X 80 severe side effects = 4,000 severe side effects each year just for the most common severe side effects.)

I felt this one should be optional.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  14:39:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 4,000 seizures due to fever (which can be halved by giving the MMR and chicken pox vaccines separately) plus the 125 low platelet count episodes can all be treated (the 1.2-per-five-million still more severe side effects are so rare they can't reliably be attributed to the vaccine). The 50 children and 50 adults who died (despite most of them being otherwise healthy) every year from chicken pox before there was a vaccine cannot be treated. Chicken pox was responsible for over 10,000 hospitalizations a year until 1994.

Most of the healthy adults who die from chicken pox today catch it from their unvaccinated children.

More info from the CDC.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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