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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2011 : 10:00:10 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Ebone4rock |
| Hogwash Bill. I believe your use of the word "empirical" is just a way for you to keep from having to provide any kind of evidence for your statement. |
Hahahaha! Your belief is nonsense. I have been giving the logic behind by statement for some time now and it is still standing. YOU CANNOT GIVE MEANING TO NOTHINGNESS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
| Let me try to explain Bill. |
Oh this should be good.
| In the grand scheme of space and time, yes I suppose you could say that life is meaningless and without purpose. |
There is no "suppose" about it. It is a demonstrable fact that atheism renders all life meaningless, period.
| Seeing as we are sentient beings though we have intellect and emotions that are very much real (this is an example of an empirical truth). |
Just as is the truth of atheism rendering all life as meaningless.
| For this reason meaning and purpose to life are attainable. |
You may think that you have attained purpose and meaning, you may really believe this in your heart of hearts, but if this is an atheistic universe than all that you have attained is ultimately rendered meaningless. Just a Fact. As much as you guys mock me you seem to be the ones who are having a tough time facing the cold hard facts about your atheistic universe. Yes it is cold but it also the facts. In the atheistic universe your life is meaningless, period. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 10:07:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
First thing first. Are you yet ready to acknowledge that atheism renders all life, including yours, meaningless? Because if not than it is meaningless for me to answer your question. |
OK Bill, exactly how is this an empirical truth?
Number two. I am not going to allow you to frame the argument. You want to redefine atheism when atheism clearly states quite simply: "There is NO evidence for God." Anything else is you erecting a strawman argument.
Well in the atheistic universe it is meaningless for me to answer your question anyway as all things in the atheistic universe are meaningless.
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Now you're talking in circles.
The question are very simple. What are you hoping for? And what gives your life meaning?
Apparently your fear of a neurotic sky daddy is the only thing that keeps you on the straight and narrow. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 10:12:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A: In the Atheistic model of the universe nothingness is the final destination for all living entities. |
There is no "atheistic model of the universe," and nothing about any current model of the universe declares that "nothingness is the final destination for all living entities."| In order to give meaning to nothingness you have begin with nothingness, which you do not. |
I don't know of anything which "begins with nothingness," so I don't see why I need to start with such a condition. Plus, I can give meaning to whatever I want, you don't get a say in what meaning I might give to whatever. You can disagree with whatever meaning I assign, but you cannot just say that I can only give meaning under your rules.| Dude it is imposable to give meaning to true nothingness. |
And here we have the "No True Nothingness" fallacy.| Think about this for awhile and you will see that I am right here. |
Don't have to.Your incredulity isn't an argument.Doesn't matter, since A is still false.| Edit to add: Let me add that I did not come to this conclusion because I was scared or was not scared. Nor am saying that because Atheism renders all life meaningless that this is evidence for theism. I am saying that Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless because Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless. |
But what meaning does Christianity provide?
Also:| Sorry if you do not like this but it is an empirical truth. |
Bizarre how you can jump so quickly from philosophy to empiricism. Empiricism doesn't touch at all on the sort of "meaning" that we're discussing (which is a philosophical meaning), and so it cannot possibly be true that "it is an empirical truth" that a person cannot assign meaning to nothingness.
Or maybe you, Bill, think you can derive a "meaning for life" using nothing but empirical methods? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:13:00 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| There is no "atheistic model of the universe," |
Sure there is.
| that "nothingness is the final destination for all living entities." |
What is your belief then and what is that based upon?
| I don't know of anything which "begins with nothingness," so I don't see why I need to start with such a condition. |
Atheism starts and ends with nothing.
| Plus, I can give meaning to whatever I want, you don't get a say in what meaning I might give to whatever. You can disagree with whatever meaning I assign, but you cannot just say that I can only give meaning under your rules. |
Who said these were my rules? In the nothingness of atheism all your assigned meanings will be rendered meaningless.
| And here we have the "No True Nothingness" fallacy. |
The fallacy was you trying to assign meaning to nothingness by pointing to kids, beds, cars and on-ramps.
But apparently you do.
| Doesn't matter, since A is still false. |
But it is not.
| But what meaning does Christianity provide? |
First thing is first. So you agree than that atheism renders all life meaningless, right?
Also:
Bizarre how you can jump so quickly from philosophy to empiricism. Empiricism doesn't touch at all on the sort of "meaning" that we're discussing (which is a philosophical meaning), and so it cannot possibly be true that "it is an empirical truth" that a person cannot assign meaning to nothingness. |
Yet you could not provide menaing to nothingness when you attempted to do so. Care to try again? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/13/2011 11:16:50 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:14:51 [Permalink]
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| Please Bill, explain how your God gives your life meaning and purpose. I am very interested in getting a perspective on that subject. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:30:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Please Bill, explain how your God gives your life meaning and purpose. I am very interested in getting a perspective on that subject.
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To give you the short answer God created man for His pleasure and for man to fellowship with the God of glory.
But more to the point of our discussion, the only way we can assign meaning to life is with a God who is creator of all life. If naturalistic forces using only materialism are responsible for all life then our life will be rendered meaningless, no matter how bad we want to assign meaning to it. I thought you guys were the ones who accepted reality as is? Why than is it so hard for you to accept this simple truth? Atheism renders all life meaningless, period. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:33:06 [Permalink]
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Bill is just confusing meaning with immortality. He thinks it something has an end point, then it can't have "meant" anything. But that's clearly preposterous. Ever person in my life who is now gone certainly meant something to me. That's meaning. It's not eternally meaningful, but again something doesn't need to go on forever to be meaningful.
And meant something to whom? As far as we can tell, only humans care much about "meaning." So if we mean something to ourselves while we're here, who could possibly care if we don't mean anything anymore when there's nobody around to care? Literally no one.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:33:41 [Permalink]
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Boy. Is this a dumb debate. Who cares what Bill thinks gives meaning to life? What he calls "meaning" is purely subjective unless he is willing to dig up studies that support his contention. Where are the studies, using empirical evidence, that suggest that atheists have no meaning in their lives or that their lives can have no meaning? Talk about miss-using a word!!!
I don't really care that Bill can't possibly find such studies, just as I don't care that I'm a germ, just as Bill is, living on the side of a tiny rock in a vast universe. (There is empirical evidence to support that, by the way. Just look at the cosmos.)
If it requires the belief in an afterlife or a supreme law giver to give your life meaning, than many of mans greatest achievements down here on this tiny rock amount to nothing. And as far as the universe goes, they do amount to nothing. But here on earth, for those of us with a curiosity for how things work and some creative spark, there is whatever meaning that we assign to ourselves and all of those who came before us. Bill's "meaning" is no different than anyone else's. He just can't locate it within himself.
Again, this debate (if that's what it is) is dumb.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:45:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Boy. Is this a dumb debate. Who cares what Bill thinks gives meaning to life? What he calls "meaning" is purely subjective unless he is willing to dig up studies that support his contention. Where are the studies, using empirical evidence, that suggest that atheists have no meaning in their lives or that their lives can have no meaning? Talk about miss-using a word!!!
I don't really care that Bill can't possibly find such studies, just as I don't care that I'm a germ, just as Bill is, living on the side of a tiny rock in a vast universe. (There is empirical evidence to support that, by the way. Just look at the cosmos.)
If it requires the belief in an afterlife or a supreme law giver to give your life meaning, than many of mans greatest achievements down here on this tiny rock amount to nothing. And as far as the universe goes, they do amount to nothing. But here on earth, for those of us with a curiosity for how things work and some creative spark, there is whatever meaning that we assign to ourselves and all of those who came before us. Bill's meaning is no different than anyone else's. He just can't locate it within himself.
Again, this debate (if that's what it is) is dumb.
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Well fine then Kil. Should we just go back to having days at a time with no kind of discussion at all? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:52:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Well fine then Kil. Should we just go back to having days at a time with no kind of discussion at all?
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If you find meaning in debating subjects that have no meaning, then this is the debate for you. Doesn't matter to me. Hell, even I responded...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 11:54:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Boy. Is this a dumb debate. Who cares what Bill thinks gives meaning to life? What he calls "meaning" is purely subjective unless he is willing to dig up studies that support his contention. Where are the studies, using empirical evidence, that suggest that atheists have no meaning in their lives or that their lives can have no meaning? Talk about miss-using a word!!!
I don't really care that Bill can't possibly find such studies, just as I don't care that I'm a germ, just as Bill is, living on the side of a tiny rock in a vast universe. (There is empirical evidence to support that, by the way. Just look at the cosmos.)
If it requires the belief in an afterlife or a supreme law giver to give your life meaning, than many of mans greatest achievements down here on this tiny rock amount to nothing. And as far as the universe goes, they do amount to nothing. But here on earth, for those of us with a curiosity for how things work and some creative spark, there is whatever meaning that we assign to ourselves and all of those who came before us. Bill's "meaning" is no different than anyone else's. He just can't locate it within himself.
Again, this debate (if that's what it is) is dumb.
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Who needs a fliping study to know that no meaning can ever be assigned to nothingness? Can you assign meaning to nothingness, Kil? Say no. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 12:08:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Can you assign meaning to nothingness, Kil? Say no.
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Yes you can. You're doing it right now. You're merely imagining that your magical mystical fairy godfather has given it meaning. Accept it Bill, you and I are less significant than ants in this big ol' universe of ours. Sorry to break it to you, but that's truth. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 12:13:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Well fine then Kil. Should we just go back to having days at a time with no kind of discussion at all?
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If you find meaning in debating subjects that have no meaning, then this is the debate for you. Doesn't matter to me. Hell, even I responded...
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Shit Kil, I can talk about nothing all day long. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 12:16:00 [Permalink]
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| Bill, of course people's lives that do not believe in God have meaning. They can assign whatever meaning they want to their lives just as I can. Does the child of atheist think that their parents have no meaning? Other people make our lives have meaning. I do agree with you that I get meaning in my life from God but why can you have no meaning without God? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
