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Hercules
New Member

35 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2011 :  20:26:40  Show Profile Send Hercules a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think many here would be interested in the mythicist position. Please give the links & videos a good going over before having any knee-jerk reactions.

"Never before has there been such a succinct, clearly explained comprehensive position for mythicists":

The Mythicist Position:

"Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not “real people” but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called “astrotheology.”

"As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 12

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html


What is a Mythicist?
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

The Mythicist Position – video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKW9sbJ3v2w

For further explanation see, The Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2160

The Origins of Christianity
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/originsofchristianity.pdf

The Origins of Islam
http://www.truthbeknown.com/islam.htm

Astrotheology of the Ancients
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/astrotheology.html

The 2011 Astrotheology Calendar
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/2011calendar.html

Freethought Gear
http://www.cafepress.com/freethoughtgear

"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations."
- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/reviews/murdock_christ_egypt.htm


"Your scholarship is relentless! The research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."
- Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3033&start=0


http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/MythicistPosition/forum/topics/the-mythicist-position

Edited by - Hercules on 05/25/2011 10:14:24

KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2011 :  20:55:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit KingDavid8's Homepage Send KingDavid8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sadly for mythicists, the "astronomy" they use to prove their claims about Jesus is a lot of misleading mumbo-jumbo. Here's a website by a non-Christian who shows that the "astrotheological" claims related in "Zeitgeist" are mostly incorrect:

http://www.tracer345.org/zeitgeist.html
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13455 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2011 :  21:27:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hercules

So, editing here apparently sucks and provides a whole new post instead and then you can't get rid of the ones you don't want like all but the last one. Okay.
If you hit reply with quote, the little left arrow icon, that's what will happen. (I deleted that post.) That's for replying to someone else's post. Try clicking on to the little notepad with a pencil icon and then edit. The edit feature works just fine. Also, you can preview your edit. That's what I should have done in this response. Ha!

You could, of course, edit your OP and delete the one that follows. Just copy and paste the one you like to the OP.

Oh look. I just edited my post to add this:

We do have a FAQ, just incase you haven't noticed.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  04:48:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by KingDavid8

Sadly for mythicists, the "astronomy" they use to prove their claims about Jesus is a lot of misleading mumbo-jumbo. Here's a website by a non-Christian who shows that the "astrotheological" claims related in "Zeitgeist" are mostly incorrect:

http://www.tracer345.org/zeitgeist.html


Sadly for tracer.org they've gravely misunderstood the astronomical claims in Zeitgiest. Tracer is reporting on the sun's zodiac position throughout the year, whereas Zeitgiest is referring to the sun in it's *daily motion*. From the Autumnal Equinox (September 22nd) to the Winter Solstice (December 22nd), everyday **AT NOON**, the sun is *overhead* the position of the Southern Crux.


NOTICE IN THE FAR RIGHT IMAGE THE SUN IS CLOSEST TO THE SOUTHERN CRUX, AS COMPARED WITH THE IMAGES ON THE LEFT

At the winter solstice, when the sun has gone as far South as it can, this overhead distance is the closest -- that is, closer than any other time of the year. For 3 days (December 22nd,23rd,24th) the sun remains on the sun dial (meaning it visibly remains in it's Sourthern most position). Depending on calendarial shifts, the sun would move 1 degree *along the ecliptic* into a new constellation on December 25th, marking it's first ascent northward.


By the way, tracer is using the modern greek words for son and sun. This makes no sense, as the bible was written in Koine Greek. Sun and son in Koine Greek are Helios (sun) and Huios (son)...notice how similar they sound. In fact, Vines New Testament dictionary for New Testament words states "The Apostle John does not use huios, 'son,' of the believer, he reserves that title for the Lord" ...further indicating that it is meant to be interchangeable with helios. See Here: http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=2693#1

"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
Edited by - teched246 on 05/24/2011 05:29:56
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  05:41:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit KingDavid8's Homepage Send KingDavid8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by teched246
From the Autumnal Equinox (September 22nd) to the Winter Solstice (December 22nd), everyday **AT NOON**, the sun is *overhead* the position of the Southern Crux.


From what location on Earth? In order to even SEE the Southern Cross, you'd have to be very near, or south of, the equator.

Also keep in mind that the "Southern Cross" was "discovered" by either Augustin Royer or Petrus Plancius in the 17th century A.D. There's zero evidence of the constellation being considered a "cross" prior to that. In pre-Christian times, it was considered part of the Centaurus constellation.

Depending on calendarial shifts, the sun would move 1 degree *along the ecliptic* into a new constellation on December 25th, marking it's first ascent northward.


The relative movement along the ecliptic isn't a northward movement, but a movement from west to east. Besides, it moves about 1 degree along the ecliptic *every day of the year* (it moves 360 degrees over the year, which is 365.24 days, at a steady rate), so there's nothing significant about it doing this in late December.
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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  05:55:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what location on Earth?

It's visible from both hemispheres. Not that it matters in light of how advanced the Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians were in astronomy, with knowledge surpassing even ours' today.

Also keep in mind that the "Southern Cross" was "discovered" by either Augustin Royer or Petrus Plancius in the 17th century A.D.
.
Incorrect, he's just the one who officially named it the "Southern Crux". It is a highly distinguishable constellation. The Ancient Greeks took note of and included it in the Centaurus constellation, as did the Ancient Egyptians, who depicted the sun overhead the Southern Crux in the following image:



The relative movement along the ecliptic isn't a northward movement

Yes it is. It's moving Northward and Westward at the same time starting December 25th. If the ecliptic was only from East to West, the sun would never make it's annual trip to and from the North and South...common knowledge...common sense.

Besides, it moves about 1 degree along the ecliptic *every day of the year*


It only changes North/South directions *twice a year* : at the time of Winter Solstice and Summer Solstice, thus making December 25th significant.

"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
Edited by - teched246 on 05/24/2011 06:28:30
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  06:28:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit KingDavid8's Homepage Send KingDavid8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by teched246

From what location on Earth?


It's visible from both hemispheres.


From the Northern hemisphere, it's only visible very close to the equator. You claimed that the sun was just above the southern cross, but whether that's true or not depends on whether or not you can even SEE the Southern Cross from where you are.


Also keep in mind that the "Southern Cross" was "discovered" by either Augustin Royer or Petrus Plancius in the 17th century A.D.
.

Incorrect, he's just the one who officially named it the "Southern Crux". It is a highly distinguishable constellation. The Ancient Greeks took note of and included it in the Centaurus constellation,


Which means that it wasn't a constellation resembling a cross to them, but part of a constellation resembling a half-man, half-horse. No one mapped it out as being its own constellation, resembling a cross, until the 17th century AD.

as did the Ancient Egyptians, who depicted the sun overhead the Crux in the following image:


Oh, so that thing in the image is supposed to be the Southern Cross constellation? Seriously?

The relative movement along the ecliptic isn't a northward movement


Yes it is. It's moving Northward and Eastward at the same time starting December 25th.


The movement along the ecliptic is west to east. The tilting of the Earth causes the sun to move slightly north or south every day, but it never moves a full degree in a day. On 12/24, it's at -23.66 degrees, and on 12/25 it's at -23.63 degrees, a movement of .03 degrees north*, not a full degree as Zeitgeist claims. The only way that it moves anywhere near a full degree would be west to east, and it moves almost a full degree every day of the year.

Besides, it moves about 1 degree along the ecliptic *every day of the year*


But it only changes North/South directions twice a year: at the time of Winter Solstice and Summer Solstice, thus making December 25th significant.


How? It starts moving north on the Solstice itself, which is usually on the 21st or 22nd, but never the 25th.

*Just wanted to clarify the numbers. I used the NOAA Solar position calculator, using Jerusalem in December of 1 AD (the calculator doesn't do BC). Changing the location or year will get you different positions, of course, but the difference between those positions will be the same. The relative movement of the sun is the same no matter where on Earth you start from or which year you use.
http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/azel.html
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  06:32:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
teched246 said:
It's visible from both hemispheres. Not that it matters in light of how advanced the Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians were in astronomy, with knowledge surpassing even ours' today.

So.. pre-Newtonian civilizations had more advanced astronomy than we do today? Can you show me the Sumerian data on the cosmic background radiation? Or the Egyptian data on supernovas? Or data from either of those civilizations that calculates planetary motion better than Newtonian physics/calculus?

No? Didn't think so.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend

USA
122 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  06:45:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send changingmyself a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This website seems to have mapped out the astrology of the bible better than any other that I have seen.

http://www.usbible.com/usbible/astrology.htm

"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"

-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School

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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  07:04:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the Northern hemisphere, it's only visible very close to the equator...whether that's true or not depends on whether or not you can even SEE the Southern Cross from where you are.


Incorrect, it *depends* on one's knowledge of astronomy around the world. The Ancient Egyptians were able to build a pyramid (The Great Pyramid) directly on specific coordinates (latitude/longitude) that are only significant to one who understands what global line intersects at that point. Thier knowledge of astronomy was by no means exclusive to egyptian Skies.



Which means that it wasn't a constellation resembling a cross to them, but part of a constellation resembling a half-man, half-horse.


The Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it. It was a stretch on the ancient greeks part to include it in the Constellation. By itself the Crux is one of the most distinguishable constellations in the sky



Oh, so that thing in the image is supposed to be the Southern Cross constellation? Seriously?


Unless you're suffering from some form of visual dislexia, that's a Crux and that's the Sun (a celestial object)overhead the Crux




The movement along the ecliptic is west to east
.

The sun would move 1 degree along the ecliptic, into Capricorn. That 1 degree along the ecliptic, coincides with -- and thus marks -- it's first ascent Northward.


It starts moving north on the Solstice itself, which is usually on the 21st or 22nd, but never the 25th.


Incorrect. *Visibly* (as stated 2-3 posts above)it does not move Northward for 3 days.

Oxford Dictionary of Archeology: Solstice: "Literally, the sun's standstill. The extreme positions of the sun at midwinter when its eastern risings and western settings appear to take place in the same position on the horizon for ----THREE DAYS---- in succession."

"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
Edited by - teched246 on 05/24/2011 07:21:08
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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  07:07:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So.. pre-Newtonian civilizations had more advanced astronomy than we do today?


If only you knew...

"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  07:23:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we done here? cough* looking at the Dude cough*

"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend

USA
122 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  07:27:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send changingmyself a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by KingDavid8

Originally posted by teched246
From the Autumnal Equinox (September 22nd) to the Winter Solstice (December 22nd), everyday **AT NOON**, the sun is *overhead* the position of the Southern Crux.


From what location on Earth? In order to even SEE the Southern Cross, you'd have to be very near, or south of, the equator.

Also keep in mind that the "Southern Cross" was "discovered" by either Augustin Royer or Petrus Plancius in the 17th century A.D. There's zero evidence of the constellation being considered a "cross" prior to that. In pre-Christian times, it was considered part of the Centaurus constellation.

Depending on calendarial shifts, the sun would move 1 degree *along the ecliptic* into a new constellation on December 25th, marking it's first ascent northward.


The relative movement along the ecliptic isn't a northward movement, but a movement from west to east. Besides, it moves about 1 degree along the ecliptic *every day of the year* (it moves 360 degrees over the year, which is 365.24 days, at a steady rate), so there's nothing significant about it doing this in late December.


What does this say about the visability of the southern crux?

"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"

-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  07:42:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by teched246

The Ancient Egyptians were able to build a pyramid (The Great Pyramid) directly on specific coordinates (latitude/longitude) that are only significant to one who understands what global line intersects at that point...
And...
So.. pre-Newtonian civilizations had more advanced astronomy than we do today?
If only you knew...
Please go ahead and start another thread on this subject.



- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  08:06:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit KingDavid8's Homepage Send KingDavid8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by teched246

From the Northern hemisphere, it's only visible very close to the equator...whether that's true or not depends on whether or not you can even SEE the Southern Cross from where you are.


Incorrect, it *depends* on one's knowledge of astronomy around the world. The Ancient Egyptians were able to build a pyramid (The Great Pyramid) directly on specific coordinates (latitude/longitude) that are only significant to one who understands what global line intersects at that point. Thier knowledge of astronomy was by no means exclusive to egyptian Skies.


One celestial object's relationship to another celestial object's relationship is a matter of where the viewer is standing. The idea of the sun being "above" the Southern Cross is a matter of whether the viewer is in a position where the Southern Cross is even visible, and whether the sun happens to be above it relative to the viewer's position. The sun being "above" the Southern Cross is not a universally-true statement. Take those three images you posted. Are we simply assuming that the buildings in the image are in a specific place on Earth where the sun is "just above" in the last image, but not in the first two? Because if we move those buildings to another place on Earth, then it could just as easily be "just above" in the first or second pictures. It all depends on where the viewer happens to be standing when looking at the two objects.


Which means that it wasn't a constellation resembling a cross to them, but part of a constellation resembling a half-man, half-horse.


The Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it.




"The Southern Cross, which now is pictured as overlaying the centaur's lower hind legs, was also originally a mere asterism formed of the stars composing those legs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurus
Just google "Southern Cross Centaurus", and you'll find plenty of websites that agree that they're adjacent.

The movement along the ecliptic is west to east
.

The sun would move 1 degree along the ecliptic, into Capricorn. That 1 degree along the ecliptic, coincides with -- and thus marks -- it's first ascent Northward.


The sun ALWAYS moves one degree along the ecliptic, *every day of the year.*. Yes, it starts moving north again on the winter solstice, but...so? Zeitgeist makes the claim that "on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again."

That it moves one degree north is false, it's only about .03 degrees, and it started moving north a few days earlier, making 12/25 irrelevant. Also, Peter Joseph tries tying this to Jesus' death and resurrection, which happened in APRIL. April is far closer to the Spring Equinox than the Winter Solstice. If you're going to make up astrological stuff and try to find a way to tie it to Jesus' birth, why not use the Spring Equinox instead of the Winter Solstice?

It starts moving north on the Solstice itself, which is usually on the 21st or 22nd, but never the 25th.


Incorrect. *Visibly* (as stated 2-3 posts above)it does not move Northward for 3 days.


It doesn't move visibly northward on December 25th either. Do you really think people can see a movement of .03 degrees over a period of 24 hours? If it was a full degree (as Zeitgeist claims), you might be able to visibly see it, but it doesn't even move a full degree on the equinoxes, when the sun's relative movement is the fastest. In all, it only moves about 45 degrees in the six months between solstices.

Oxford Dictionary of Archeology: Solstice: "Literally, the sun's standstill. The extreme positions of the sun at midwinter when its eastern risings and western settings appear to take place in the same position on the horizon for ----THREE DAYS---- in succession."


Great, except if we're saying the sun's movement is so slow that it "stops" for three days, then this would have to be three days surrounding the solstice. And since the sun moves just as slow approaching the solstice (usually 12/21 or 12/22) as it does leaving it, we'd be more likely talking about these three days being 12/20 - 12/23 than 12/22 - 12/25.

And again, the "three days" in Christianity is in APRIL, not DECEMBER. It has to do with Jesus' resurrection, not His birth.
Edited by - KingDavid8 on 05/24/2011 08:16:07
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2011 :  08:12:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit KingDavid8's Homepage Send KingDavid8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by changingmyself

What does this say about the visability of the southern crux?



That you'd have to be near or south of the equator to see it. That same source also points out that the crux was "added by Petrus Plancius", who lived from 1552-1622. That means it was added at least a millenium and a half after Jesus' time, and thus could not have been any sort of influence on His story, unless time-travel was involved.
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