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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2011 : 06:26:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tbradnc
Accepting that things are the way they are does not imply a lack of action by any stretch of the imagination.
Acceptance is not apathy.
For instance, in an abusive relationship a person has to accept that the relationship they are in is unhealthy and then make whatever changes are appropriate.
Or, maybe better - if I have a flat tire on the way to work I can get worked into a frenzy because I'm going to be late, get my hands dirty, get my shirt dirty, etc. Or, I can just accept that I've had a flat tire and change it. No amount of lost composure is going to change the fact that the tire is flat and getting in a twist about it just causes me to suffer.
From my own life.... I collect coffee cups. And I have 3 children so on a fairly regular basis one of my cups gets broken. It used to drive me crazy and I would get very angry.
Then one day it dawned on me that it was the nature of cups to break, and that every single cup on the face of the earth, given enough time, would get broken. So.... I started seeing my cups as already broken. Problem solved. :-)
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Thank you for such a great explanation. :) |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 10:57:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Mab, you just advocated for the Serenity Prayer. Although I like to think of it as not a prayer, but just really good advice. |
Yes, I'm well aware of the Serenity Prayer. If I'm not mistaken it's invoked during AA-meetings' 12-step program?
Strip off all the God-stuff in it, and it becomes good advice.
In fact, strip off all the God-stuff from the Bible, and what you get left becomes so much better. And when put into the historic context of some tribes of sheep herders, it'll start make perfect sense...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tbradnc
New Member
10 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 11:27:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tbradnc
The Dalai Lama, as many of you know, is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists - here is a short piece on his views regarding Buddhism and science. |
Yeah, Buddhists have long claimed that there is no conflict between their beliefs and with science. Almost every apologist for a particular faith will claim as much, from Deepak Chopra to the Catholic Church. The author, who is one such Catholic, writes: | The woman in the story held an opinion that seems to be widespread these days: Science is a killer of religion. Not only do those on the Christian Right believe this; so do the so-called New Atheists, who have invested their entire worldview in this notion. Their difficulty with religion seems to be borne of the mistaken ideas that God is subject to scientific categories and that religion is a purely propositional exercise. But God is not contained by discursive language; God is the fundamental mystery of life, the universe, and everything. Religion is not about faith statements but is about clear vision. Whether one is a Christian or a Buddhist, religion is about seeing the world as it really is. |
Seeing the world as it truly is? Please. Let's not forget that "His Holiness" the Dalai Lama only has a job because cultists stole a 5 year old boy from his family on the grounds that he was the reincarnated embodiment of their dead guru.
One such victim, at least, has spoken out against the practice. As a toddler, he was put on a throne and worshipped by monks who treated him like a god. But the boy chosen by the Dalai Lama as a reincarnation of a spiritual leader has caused consternation and some embarrassment for Tibetan Buddhists by turning his back on the order that had such high hopes for him.
Instead of leading a monastic life, Osel Hita Torres now sports baggy trousers and long hair, and is more likely to quote Jimi Hendrix than Buddha.
Yesterday he bemoaned the misery of a youth deprived of television, football and girls. Movies were also forbidden except for a sanctioned screening of The Golden Child starring Eddie Murphy, about a kidnapped child lama with magical powers. "I never felt like that boy," he said.
He is now studying film in Madrid and has denounced the Buddhist order that elevated him to guru status. "They took me away from my family and stuck me in a medieval situation in which I suffered a great deal," said Torres, 24, describing how he was whisked from obscurity in Granada to a monastery in southern India. "It was like living a lie," he told the Spanish newspaper El Mundo. |
Now that sounds like a man with clear vision.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/05/2011 12:49:54 |
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tbradnc
New Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 18:34:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by tbradnc
The Dalai Lama, as many of you know, is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists - here is a short piece on his views regarding Buddhism and science. |
Yeah, Buddhists have long claimed that there is no conflict between their beliefs and with science. Almost every apologist for a particular faith will claim as much, from Deepak Chopra to the Catholic Church. The author, who is one such Catholic, writes: | The woman in the story held an opinion that seems to be widespread these days: Science is a killer of religion. Not only do those on the Christian Right believe this; so do the so-called New Atheists, who have invested their entire worldview in this notion. Their difficulty with religion seems to be borne of the mistaken ideas that God is subject to scientific categories and that religion is a purely propositional exercise. But God is not contained by discursive language; God is the fundamental mystery of life, the universe, and everything. Religion is not about faith statements but is about clear vision. Whether one is a Christian or a Buddhist, religion is about seeing the world as it really is. |
Seeing the world as it truly is? Please. Let's not forget that "His Holiness" the Dalai Lama only has a job because cultists stole a 5 year old boy from his family on the grounds that he was the reincarnated embodiment of their dead guru.
One such victim, at least, has spoken out against the practice. As a toddler, he was put on a throne and worshipped by monks who treated him like a god. But the boy chosen by the Dalai Lama as a reincarnation of a spiritual leader has caused consternation and some embarrassment for Tibetan Buddhists by turning his back on the order that had such high hopes for him.
Instead of leading a monastic life, Osel Hita Torres now sports baggy trousers and long hair, and is more likely to quote Jimi Hendrix than Buddha.
Yesterday he bemoaned the misery of a youth deprived of television, football and girls. Movies were also forbidden except for a sanctioned screening of The Golden Child starring Eddie Murphy, about a kidnapped child lama with magical powers. "I never felt like that boy," he said.
He is now studying film in Madrid and has denounced the Buddhist order that elevated him to guru status. "They took me away from my family and stuck me in a medieval situation in which I suffered a great deal," said Torres, 24, describing how he was whisked from obscurity in Granada to a monastery in southern India. "It was like living a lie," he told the Spanish newspaper El Mundo. |
Now that sounds like a man with clear vision.
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As you wish. :) |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 18:04:05 [Permalink]
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I've been meaning to raise this topic for ages, but somehow never got around to it. I wanted to do more research, but anyway, I'm curious about the Buddhist conception of "self-annihilation," the deliberate damping down of ego in order to experience the world directly. According the tradition, the Buddha was deeply traumatized by the suffering he saw in the world, and after many years of ascetic meditation he attained enlightenment--a mental state where the ego and self have been "transcended." There are many stories of Buddhist acolytes following in his footsteps who also attained enlightenment only after suffering some personal pain or humiliation, such as being slapped or thrown into a mud puddle.
What strikes me is how close this parallels what psychologists have termed disassociation, a mental state of extreme detachment experienced by people undergoing a severe trauma such as physical abuse or rape. Victims sometimes describe feeling "outside of their own bodies" as if the trauma were happening to "someone else." The psychological refuge offered by this mental defense mechanism is usually temporary, but I've been wondering for awhile now if Buddhism and other "spiritual" paths aren't actually anything more than attempts to extend this natural state of disassociation. Certain psychoactive substances can also induce this state of detachment, which would help explain both their common abuse by trauma survivors and their historical role as an aid to "religious" experiences.
Thoughts?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/26/2011 18:07:03 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 06:51:33 [Permalink]
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| HH, I've wondered this in passing before to. My first question would be how might a prolonged state of disassociation impact a person's life? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 06:59:55 [Permalink]
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I found reading Pema Chondron's book "The When Things Fall Apart" useful when I was going through a difficult transition in my life a few years ago. She became a Buddhist nun and teacher after the unexpected and incredibly painful divorce from her long-time husband. There is definitely a huge benefit to having psychological mechanisms in place for dealing with such transitions in life since they are inevitable. I imagine whenever the next such transition happens in my life, I'll be picking that book off my shelf to read again, and once again attempt to absorb as much of what she is saying as I can.
But one reason I doubt I'll ever become Buddhist myself is that I can't deal with the meditation (that also limited the benefits I was able to glean from Chodron's book.) I am the same way about yoga - I'll do pilates infused with yoga, but doing just pure yoga starts to drive me nuts, even give me anxiety attacks or bouts of rage. Any time I've attempted to meditate I have similar reactions. I've heard some other people have similar experiences. Maybe it reflects a lack of inner peace and unresolved emotional issues that I want to ignore. Or maybe it has something to do with my temperament and/or upbringing. Doesn't matter since I don't feel I need yoga or meditation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 10:11:17 [Permalink]
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| Buddhism seems a way of practicing escapism. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 11:24:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Buddhism seems a way of practicing escapism.
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and
Originally posted by marfknox
My first question would be how might a prolonged state of disassociation impact a person's life?
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Yes, this was one facet I was hoping to explore with tbradnc before he ran off. If the practice of Buddhism is actually unknowingly training people to induce a state of disassociation, 1) Is this form of escapism actually desirable? i.e. What are the long term consequences? And 2) If desirable, are there better ways to induce it?
Of course, such a conversation was predicated on the condition that, as a self-proclaimed skeptic, tbradnc could discuss his religion dispassionately and objectively. Unfortunately, he seemed to want to take his religion's claims at face value while being unwilling to discuss them.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/27/2011 11:25:09 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 11:52:57 [Permalink]
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Thorgolucky wrote: | Buddhism seems a way of practicing escapism. |
That seems a pretty unfair generalization.
Is there any evidence that Buddhists are less involved with the world and their personal relationships? I have a friend who is married to a Buddhist priest. He's been in a committed, monogamous relationship for 20 years, has a successful career (something with computers) and is a very involved father to two girls. Obviously he's pretty serious about his religion since he's a friggin' Buddhist priest (apparently it involves shaving his head every few years and doing some retreat/conference stuff and being a leader of a local community group) and yet it is apparent from his personal and career life that his Buddhist practice doesn't pull him away from personal responsibilities and emotional engagement with those he loves. I'm trying to find stats on Buddhists to see if they have higher divorce rates, career problems, etc., and I can't find anything which suggests that Buddhists are uniquely dysfunctional, and I imagine someone who devotes their life to escapism would be so.
Given how indirect and vague many of the teachings of Siddhartha Guatama are, requiring interpretations which have lead to the branching off of several very different types of Buddhism, is it not more likely that two people might practice in completely different ways but both claim to be following the same teachings? In other words, while one person might actually be using Buddhism for unhealthy escapism, another might be using it to gain healthy perspective on their life.
HH wrote: | Yes, this was one facet I was hoping to explore with tbradnc before he ran off. If the practice of Buddhism is actually unknowingly training people to induce a state of disassociation, 1) Is this form of escapism actually desirable? i.e. What are the long term consequences? And 2) If desirable, are there better ways to induce it? |
Poking around the Internet, it seems that Buddhists are aware of this concern and are wary of their practices resulting in mere disassociation. This conversation was particular relevant to our discussion. I liked this person's way of putting things: | dissociation tries to get the experience out of the way; disidentification gets the identity out of the way. |
Everything I've ever read about Buddhism suggests to me that Buddhists are not about completely escaping life's hardships, but rather, they are interested in re-framing our perspective of pain and suffering by being able to step back enough to even let go of our sense of self. And they don't seem to advocate maintaining such a perspective all the time; otherwise they wouldn't do things like get married, raise children, have political opinions, and otherwise participate in the game of life as human's define and experience it. It seems like it is more about achieving a great sense of awareness of the true nature of reality as we human beings subjectively experience it, not escaping our problems. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/27/2011 11:56:08 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 12:39:52 [Permalink]
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Cool. I've bookmarked that for later reading. Although I must say that at first glance that quote seems to be simply putting a different spin on the same phenomena: separating one's identify from one's experiences. In general, self-reporting of religious practices is only useful in learning what adherents believe themselves to be doing, not necessarily what they are doing. For instance, tbradnc approvingly quoted Paul Wallace as stating "religion is about seeing the world as it really is." Now, Wallace may really believe that, but as skeptics we have many reasons for believing it to be untrue. Many theists also think that by imagining themselves to be of utmost concern to the all-powerful creator of the Universe they are being humble. Some Christians think that when demonstrating glossolalia they are speaking a spiritual language, etc. Bottom line, participants of any religious practice are usually the last to recognize and understand what it is they are actually doing. So the fact that Buddhists believe disidentification to be wholly different than disassociation is both unsurprising and meaningless.
Which isn't to say I don't see any differences. As you point out, Marf, Buddhists don't generally disengage from the world. Then again, most Buddhists will never attain the vaunted status of enlightenment, while those who do often do so only after a prolonged and isolated retreat.
Anyway, further comment will have to wait until I find the time to read more.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/27/2011 12:51:25 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 12:43:09 [Permalink]
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Interesting, thanks. I have a Buddhist hiking friend who has attempted to explain a few things. I remember something about souls exploding out of heads upon death. Hmm. She and my other mystic friends are into dualism and the idea that intuition is a fount of knowledge instead of the garbage-in-garbage-out prediction engine that I understand it to be. And she's into alt med and biodynamic gardening. That's my personal anecdote of an Oregon Buddhist and I wonder if such beliefs are prevalent to Buddhists or just New Agey American ones.
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| Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 09/27/2011 12:45:08 |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 14:34:15 [Permalink]
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Interest in Eastern Mysticism peaked in America during the 60's fueled by the drug culture and the search for an alternate life style. The only thing that remained was yoga and meditation. The philosophical base was incompatible with Western thinking.
Central to the Eastern Mysticism is the cycle of rebirths known as reincarnations. It is the individuals responsibility to break free from this recurring cycle by attaining control over his desire (sensual) (material) (sexual)etc.
In Buddhism There is no concept of salvation by a divine external source such as god. It is the inner goodness and godliness that one has to develop and to reach within.
Eastern Mysticism is about harmonizing with nature and the environment. To accept conflict and suffering as part of life and our own struggles(desires) that contribute to the disharmony.
This is quite unlike western thinking where knowledge and science are used to change and shape our environment. This approach is more intrusive and the effects more dramatic like global warming, hormone induced growth in poultry and beef, political and religious indoctrination. Disharmony on a global scale.
Eastern Mysticism was created at a time when there was abundance, social stability, social order which made the pursuit of human ideals possible. The pursuit of wisdom and godliness.
Modern man is but a sensual, sexual, pursuer of gratification. Greed, materialism and a glutton for euphoric intoxication and yet simultaneously seeking a tortured redemption from desperate despair. |
| Edited by - justintime on 10/09/2011 14:35:58 |
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Buddhist skeptic
