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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2011 :  20:49:24  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a hard time believing that some people are still this backward and primitive, especially in a country and culture that is renowned for placing great value on education. Jewish court sentences dog to death by stoning. Fortunately it seems to have escaped, but people this stupid are likely to not let this rest, they may go on a hunt. I would even support PETA if they took up this battle.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590

Elmo the Clown
New Member

31 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  05:04:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Elmo the Clown's Homepage Send Elmo the Clown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was a rabbinical court, which is not a civil court. (not making them any less idiots) Like Sharia courts (or whatever they call them). Interestingly (and cringing-ly) enough.. we have those puppies here (rabbinical courts). Makes all those laws banning the Sharia courts unconstitutional.

As far as the constitutionality of the courts themselves, well.. it depends on what power they have, and whether that power is contrary to the constitution.

edited for clarity

Support a clown, buy a luury cruise from www.ChicLuxuryCruises.com (or any cruise...)
Edited by - Elmo the Clown on 06/18/2011 05:06:17
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  07:17:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow. The extremes of insane claims that some people will believe never ceases to impress me.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  07:26:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Elmo the Clown

It was a rabbinical court, which is not a civil court. (not making them any less idiots) Like Sharia courts (or whatever they call them). Interestingly (and cringing-ly) enough.. we have those puppies here (rabbinical courts). Makes all those laws banning the Sharia courts unconstitutional.

As far as the constitutionality of the courts themselves, well.. it depends on what power they have, and whether that power is contrary to the constitution.

That's an important distinction Elmo. If I'm not mistaking their authority is granted by the individuals with conflicts willing to be ruled by those 'courts' who don't take their issues to local civil courts for resolution. Providing a form of nonbinding arbitration. If parties agree it ends there.

Is it that surprising that a religious person can be taken over by magical thinking? The activities are a bit synonymous after all but I bet no theist here will admit to having magical thinking because their deluded in thinking they don't. Deluded people do exist whether on religious matter or not. Those so afflicted never believe they are deluded. I suspect humans not being all knowing, must be deluded somehow.

Originally posted by The Rat

I have a hard time believing that some people are still this backward and primitive, ...


You know Rat it shouldn't be all that surprising to anyone. Considering all the crazy shit people believe. People regulary hold beliefs without any empirical evidence, that makes anything believable. What a nut job but they're everywhere, really. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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teched246
Skeptic Friend

123 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  08:08:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send teched246 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dog stonings, huh? Watch this short documentary on Africa's "witch children" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbGzFN_NalI
Nothing like following the "word of god".




"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  08:42:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

I have a hard time believing that some people are still this backward and primitive, especially in a country and culture that is renowned for placing great value on education. Jewish court sentences dog to death by stoning. Fortunately it seems to have escaped, but people this stupid are likely to not let this rest, they may go on a hunt. I would even support PETA if they took up this battle.
What an odd story. There is some stuff about reincarnation, but it's not a cross species type. And it's a choice:

Judaism and Reincarnation

The Jewish understanding of reincarnation is different from Buddhist doctrines. It in no way leads to fatalism. At every point of moral decision in his life, a Jew has complete free choice. If not for freedom of choice, how unfair it would be of G-d to make demands of us - especially when reward and punishment is involved! Reincarnation does not imply pre-determination. It is, rather, an opportunity for rectification and soul-perfection.

The holy Ari explained it most simply: every Jew must fulfill all 613 mitzvot, and if he doesn't succeed in one lifetime, he comes back again and again until he finishes.


And:

Resurrection and Reincarnation

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.


I can find nothing, other than this story, that allows for a person to be reincarnated as anything other than a human. I'd love to know, if it happened, what part of the bible or cabala allows for such a thing so that they could come to such a stupid and brutal conclusion? As for the stoning, this is so far removed from modern Judaism that I have to think these Rabbi's are part of some weird cult even within the cult of religion itself.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  11:14:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil, these rabbis cast the lawyer's spirit into the dog themselves as a result of a curse they issued a few years back. So of course they think it worked. Doubting the effectiveness of the curse would be the same as doubting their own power and authority. More interesting than the topic of reincarnation to me is the idea that rabbis have the power to issue curses which can affect a spirit's afterlife. How is that not playing god? How is that not a form of black magic? And if having the lawyer return trapped in the body of a dog was their intention, why try to kill the dog? Wouldn't they want the lawyer to suffer under their curse for as long as possible?

The whole thing just doesn't make sense. Part of me wonders if this isn't a bogus story. But like most here, nothing people do in the name of religion can shock me any longer.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  11:55:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Kil, these rabbis cast the lawyer's spirit into the dog themselves as a result of a curse they issued a few years back. So of course they think it worked. Doubting the effectiveness of the curse would be the same as doubting their own power and authority. More interesting than the topic of reincarnation to me is the idea that rabbis have the power to issue curses which can affect a spirit's afterlife. How is that not playing god? How is that not a form of black magic? And if having the lawyer return trapped in the body of a dog was their intention, why try to kill the dog? Wouldn't they want the lawyer to suffer under their curse for as long as possible?

The whole thing just doesn't make sense. Part of me wonders if this isn't a bogus story. But like most here, nothing people do in the name of religion can shock me any longer.


Yeah. But I can find no source, Jewish or otherwise that extends any curse on anyone to include reincarnation, and even stranger, cross species reincarnation. Curses of bad fortune exist. And no one really knows (even those who take the religion seriously) if they actually work. What those Rabbi's are claiming has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. Those guys are nuts if they think it does. As I said, either they are a strange "jewish" cult, or they are deranged. Well, yeah... They are deranged either way...

Makes me wonder if the story is true, too.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sugarino
New Member

33 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2011 :  22:39:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sugarino a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to side with you Kil, I'm having a hard time believing this story.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2011 :  00:06:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ditto. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2011 :  10:58:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a discussion on the forum at Scopes.com. Though the actual information is sketchy, it does seem like what we have here is an urban legend in the making.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=74016

There is just too much here that doesn't add up. The whole story about ruling to have the dog stoned (for whatever reason) is based on the word of an unnamed court manager. The Rabbi, who is named, denies that he ever came to such a ruling. At worst, it looks like he asked some kids to chase the dog away. And some of them threw stones. (Not that it's okay to do that but who the hell knows what the size of those stones were? Were they lethal sized or just small rocks to chase the dog away?) The Rabbi is in hot water for that. An animal rights group quickly got on it. If the intent was to chase the dog away, that's a far cry from ruling that a dog should be stoned to death because of a curse.

Also, it seems no one remembers the curse or the lawyer that was supposedly cursed, let alone if he died recently or is even dead.

I've noticed a problem with the news stories too. They seem to be reporting off of each others story, like a rumor mill. Same headline, and close to the same story with little variation. And always an unnamed court manager is the person who verified the story. I understand that some of the news sources are probably just taking the story off the wire, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of investigation going on.

Check this out:

Google: Jewish court sentences dog to death by stoning

It goes on like that for 28 pages.

I think there is sufficient reason to be skeptical about the story and how this went down.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2011 :  09:53:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The story has been retracted:
Remember the story of the dog that appeared at the gates of the beis din in mea Shearim? They could not chase it away, and supposedly had decided it was a gilgul of someone who had shamed the dayanim many years earlier. they supposedly had kids stone it and chase it away.

The story raised a ruckus at the time, and the organization against cruelty to animals even filed a complaint against the beis din, all the while the head of the beis din denied the allegations.

Today, the Maariv newspaper ran a “clarification” and apology about that story, saying the rav had said there is no basis for abusing the dog, not halachically and not logically. The rav had also said that city hall had sent their dog catcher to collect the dog from the premises of the beis din. The newspaper apologizes for the misleading headlines from when it was reported.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2011 :  11:02:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

The story has been retracted:
Remember the story of the dog that appeared at the gates of the beis din in mea Shearim? They could not chase it away, and supposedly had decided it was a gilgul of someone who had shamed the dayanim many years earlier. they supposedly had kids stone it and chase it away.

The story raised a ruckus at the time, and the organization against cruelty to animals even filed a complaint against the beis din, all the while the head of the beis din denied the allegations.

Today, the Maariv newspaper ran a “clarification” and apology about that story, saying the rav had said there is no basis for abusing the dog, not halachically and not logically. The rav had also said that city hall had sent their dog catcher to collect the dog from the premises of the beis din. The newspaper apologizes for the misleading headlines from when it was reported.

Looks like they should have checked the story with us! Not that we knew the whole story (or any of it really) but most of us didn't buy it as it was reported. Yay Skeptics!!!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2011 :  11:40:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed Brayton is a little embarrassed:

Oops. It was all a hoax. Looks like I'm the one getting stoned, but with eggs hitting my face.


HAARETZ weighs in:

In the age of instant news and the spreading like wildfire of information - true or false - via the Twittersphere, there are genuine questions which need answering about the future of accurate news reporting. The debunking of the Gay Girl in Damascus blog, which it turns out was written by an American man in Scotland, made many people nervous about how easy it is to be taken in by an internet persona. Journalists continue to be banned from action hotspots like Syria, where information is at a premium - maybe it was just easier to believe in Gay Girl than to do without her.

The recent story about the alleged sentencing to death of an Israeli canine inhabited by the spirit of a hateful secular lawyer reminds us that verification of facts can still play second fiddle to getting a juicy story out quickly. Worse, the response from media outlets following a debunking raises similarly serious issues as the original publication of the skewed report.


The story was reported on June 3rd and retracted on June 15th! It was already retracted by the time it went global! And yet as late as yesterday, it was still being reported. They couldn't have been reporting off the source because the paper had already retracted. And that was my point earlier in this thread about the media reporting off of each other, with no investigation, basically spreading a rumor. Bad! If anything comes from this story it should be how poorly the whole thing was reported. Hell, it didn't take much for me to figure out that there is nothing in Judaism that allows for what was being reported, and yet who reporting the story even bothered to look at that?

I don't think it's going out on much of a limb to suggest that the spred of this story, with little or no investigation, was at least partly fueled by anti semitic or anti religious prejudice. The rest is sheer laziness on the part of news reporting agencies when a juicy story hits their desks.

Bullshit spreads fast when unchecked by the people who are supposed to watch for such things but aren't doing their job. The media is guilty of gross negligence. And that's my ruling in the court of skepticism.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2011 :  19:23:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I don't think it's going out on much of a limb to suggest that the spred of this story, with little or no investigation, was at least partly fueled by anti semitic or anti religious prejudice.

In the story they claimed it was first reported in an Israeli news paper, if untrue, that would confirm your suspicion on the antisemitic source [b]Kil[/]. Anyway, good call from the get go, after your looking into it. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 06/22/2011 23:10:29
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2011 :  23:58:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by Kil

I don't think it's going out on much of a limb to suggest that the spred of this story, with little or no investigation, was at least partly fueled by anti semitic or anti religious prejudice.

In the story they claimed it was first reported in an Israeli news paper, if untrue, that would confirm your suspicion on the antisemitic source [b]Kil[/]. Anyway, good call from the get go, after your looking into it. SS
I said the spread of the story. The idea that it was credible and that no one checked to see if there was any precedence for what the Rabbi supposedly did in Jewish law. It seems no one bothered to look at that side of things. That it was first reported in an Israeli newspaper is not really relavent, I think.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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