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 What about garra ruffa fish therapy
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member

United Kingdom
43 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  16:25:47  Show Profile Send Judge Bromley circa 1612 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this a suitable topic for this forum?

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  16:39:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it is about some kind of snake oil promising cures it can't deliver, then this is probably the right place for it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  16:40:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612

Is this a suitable topic for this forum?


Yes it is.

Seems like it is an expensive pedicure treatment. They have been suggesting it for actual medical therapies, but it is unclear from what I read what this would actually treat.

I also note medical maggots and medical leeches have made a comeback (for medically sound reasons).

What have you heard?

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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member

United Kingdom
43 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  16:58:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Judge Bromley circa 1612 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Working in my particular field I am now warning people of the potential dangers of this treatment. At the moment , in the UK,the Health Protection agency is looking into the possible dangers of cross infection. That is the danger of infections being passed on to people by using this treatment. A couple of months ago Breakfast a TV show over here presented a report from one of these spars where this treament was offered . The therapist stated that the water in the tanks the fish were kept in was changed twice daily. She also said the tanks had a filtering system that regularly cleansed the water.

Looking at the reporters foot it seemed likely that the reporter had a superficial fungal nail infection. I thought, at the time, if there was a possibility of this infection being passsed on to another person. Although I am not a microbiologist I ahve studied it in regard to what I do for a living . I don't want to make any unwarranted statements that are not based on fact.
As stated the HPA is looking into the matter in the UK . I suppose they will have micorbiologists and virologists looking inot the matter to see whether conditions like HIV, Hepatitis B, C and D can be passed on form one person to another by this method of transmission.I don't want to go beyond my scope of practice and make any wild claims without evidence to back it up / All I can say at tis moment is that people should be aware of the potential risks involved.

I don't think I have said anything that can lead me to being sued .In any case I pay enough money to cover the costs of any litigation brought against me.

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Judge Bromley circa 1612
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United Kingdom
43 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  17:06:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Judge Bromley circa 1612 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There seems to be good medical reasons for using maggots to get rid of necortic, dead , tissue. The reason garra ruffa fish treatment is used is simply to get rid of dead skin or excessive callous, one and the same. A much preferred method is to remove said dead skin with a sterile scalpel blade thus preventing any transmission of any bacteria, fungi or virus from one person to the next.

Not so sure about leeches though . Perhaps you could supply me with a link for leech therapy Valiant?

I hope I have made myself clear.


Best wishes Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612 ( the witches' and creationists' nightmare)
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  19:07:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Leeches and maggots are FDA approved in the US for some medical uses.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2011 :  23:21:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Foot-Nibbling Garra Rufa Fish

Based on local news reports, Washington and Texas beauty salons, where the service was offered before bans, applied more safety measures than the group pools commonly do in Southeast Asia. These U.S. spas were using individual basins for each customer and sterilizing them after each use. Nonetheless, it wasn't enough for the sanitation police. After all, the expensive fish themselves weren't being thrown away after each use and can't be sterilized without killing them. A spokeswoman for Washington's Department of Licensing explained, "You can clean the tank, you can clean the water, but there's no guarantee that the fish aren't carrying something from the previous customer."



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  06:50:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612

There seems to be good medical reasons for using maggots to get rid of necortic, dead , tissue. The reason garra ruffa fish treatment is used is simply to get rid of dead skin or excessive callous, one and the same. A much preferred method is to remove said dead skin with a sterile scalpel blade thus preventing any transmission of any bacteria, fungi or virus from one person to the next.

Not so sure about leeches though . Perhaps you could supply me with a link for leech therapy Valiant?

I hope I have made myself clear.


Best wishes Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612 ( the witches' and creationists' nightmare)


Dude beat me to it.

Leeches are being used for phalange reattachment to help with blood flow through the impacted digit. The leech secretes a natural anti-coagulant. And since the leeches are not reused, they are safe.

As for the transmission of bloodbourne pathogens, not likely. The fish don't draw blood and the HIV virus won't survive for long in a cold-blooded animal. Hep A,B, and C, again not likely. There has to be contact with an open wound. (I've been in healthcare for 22 years. I've seen the bloodbourne pathogen film so many times I can repeat it in my sleep.)

Fungal transferrance is completely reasonable to assume. Even if you clean the tanks after every session, you have to decontaminate the fish. It's the reuse portion that is at issue. (I'm sure there are some good decontamination methodologies for the fish. Baking with some fava beans and canapes at 350 degrees springs to mind.)

It's the transferrence portion and the violation of universal precautions that the fish fall afoul of. The medical leeches and maggots are not reused. Reuse of the fish can transfer some pathogens. I'd be more concerned with the transfer of MRSA. It's a real pain in the butt. They have to throw you on Cipro or Bentam which just knocks your tail in the dirt for two weeks.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  07:46:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doctor Fish for psoriasis.

I hadn't thought of the infection angle.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  08:45:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612

There seems to be good medical reasons for using maggots to get rid of necortic, dead , tissue. The reason garra ruffa fish treatment is used is simply to get rid of dead skin or excessive callous, one and the same. A much preferred method is to remove said dead skin with a sterile scalpel blade thus preventing any transmission of any bacteria, fungi or virus from one person to the next.

Not so sure about leeches though . Perhaps you could supply me with a link for leech therapy Valiant?

I hope I have made myself clear.


Best wishes Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612 ( the witches' and creationists' nightmare)


Dude beat me to it.

Leeches are being used for phalange reattachment to help with blood flow through the impacted digit. The leech secretes a natural anti-coagulant. And since the leeches are not reused, they are safe.

As for the transmission of bloodbourne pathogens, not likely. The fish don't draw blood and the HIV virus won't survive for long in a cold-blooded animal. Hep A,B, and C, again not likely. There has to be contact with an open wound. (I've been in healthcare for 22 years. I've seen the bloodbourne pathogen film so many times I can repeat it in my sleep.)

Fungal transferrance is completely reasonable to assume. Even if you clean the tanks after every session, you have to decontaminate the fish. It's the reuse portion that is at issue. (I'm sure there are some good decontamination methodologies for the fish. Baking with some fava beans and canapes at 350 degrees springs to mind.)

It's the transferrence portion and the violation of universal precautions that the fish fall afoul of. The medical leeches and maggots are not reused. Reuse of the fish can transfer some pathogens. I'd be more concerned with the transfer of MRSA. It's a real pain in the butt. They have to throw you on Cipro or Bentam which just knocks your tail in the dirt for two weeks.

I work in a major trauma center. The leeches are single use and they are obtained from a farm that raises them specifically for medical use. There are quality control measures to make sure the medical leeches don't carry any environmental contaminants or potential diseases. No idea what those measures are, but the pharmacist who dispenses them told me they are in place....


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  10:54:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Doctor Fish for psoriasis.

I hadn't thought of the infection angle.
I was thinking of the psoriasis treatment also.
I didn't realise they were using this method for other stuff, like nail fungus.

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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/20/2011 10:55:57
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  14:53:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Coincidentally, today's Groupon is half-off Yvonne's "Fish Therapy and Mani-Pedi."

They're not making any medical claims (other than exfoliation) so it's odd that their cartoon fish is wearing a nurse's hat, and that they call it "Therapy."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  15:59:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Coincidentally, today's Groupon is half-off Yvonne's "Fish Therapy and Mani-Pedi."

They're not making any medical claims (other than exfoliation) so it's odd that their cartoon fish is wearing a nurse's hat, and that they call it "Therapy."


Have to science it up a bit to sell it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member

United Kingdom
43 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2011 :  16:23:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Judge Bromley circa 1612 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks everyone for getting back to me. Valiant dancer do you have evidence to back up your claim that Hep B, C and D can't be passed on by Garra ruffa fish? Has there been testing to verify this ? Also Hep A and E are , as far as I am aware, passed on through oral transmission . How have things worked out in the US and Canada regarding this therapy is is still used or have some States and Provinces in Canada, in the US. , banned it?

Thanks for the information regarding leech therapy .


Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( the witches' and pseudoscientist' friend)
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member

United Kingdom
43 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2011 :  16:32:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Judge Bromley circa 1612 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the links evreyone. I'm still concerned about this therapy especially how they supposedly sterilise the tanks in certain parts. Would have thought the tanks wouldn't fit in most autoclaves. Also what do they use a serilisation fluid to do it ? If so would be interested to know what they use.

Thank you everyone.


Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( the witches' and pseudoscientist' friend)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2011 :  18:00:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What sorts of germs aren't killed reliably by bleach?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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