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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 07:01:27 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | No, it's not popular, but it is well-funded and growing. The people who complain about creeping Sharia can only point to a vague "they" as driving the "problem," but Christian Nationalists have well-defined groups, named leaders and published strategies. |
There is a mix of truth and boogeyman stuff. Is it true that there is a well-funded political movement to make America a "Christian nation" in the sense that it would expand the special rights and privileges of certain Christian institutions, elect and appoint the "right" type of Christian political leaders, and maintain and expand on socially conservative laws? Sure. But is America under any even slightly serious threat of committing genocide against adulterers, homosexuals, and fornicators and stripping women of their property rights? No. That is the stuff of fiction (Handmaid's Tale.)
This country's whole history is marked by ongoing battles between secularists and those who want a government influenced or even dominated by certain types of Christianity. It was never purely secular, and it was never a Christian-ruled nation.
| Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin and Rick Perry are, if not card-carrying members, at least very friendly with some of the big-shots in the movement. |
So what? Guilt by association? And I guess all those assholes who criticized Obama for statements made by Jeremiah Wright were justified?
There is enough real stuff to fear from conservatives in America. Things that they really do openly advocate and which are popular. It just seems paranoid and sensationalist to focus on stuff that if you were to ask a typical right winger on the street about, they'd look at you and say, "What the fuck are you talking about? We don't support that!" |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2011 : 10:55:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
But is America under any even slightly serious threat of committing genocide against adulterers, homosexuals, and fornicators and stripping women of their property rights? No. That is the stuff of fiction (Handmaid's Tale.) |
If they manage to get 218 Representatives, 51 Senators and the Presidency, they'd have enough power to do whatever they want.| This country's whole history is marked by ongoing battles between secularists and those who want a government influenced or even dominated by certain types of Christianity. It was never purely secular, and it was never a Christian-ruled nation. |
Most of those historical battles have been waged by people who had a modicum of respect for the Constitution, but perhaps misunderstood it. The people I'm worried about are those who want to eliminate it and replace it with the Bible.| Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin and Rick Perry are, if not card-carrying members, at least very friendly with some of the big-shots in the movement. |
So what? Guilt by association? |
Actually, I'm sure that Palin and Bachmann are dominionists. Rick Perry I'm not sure about, but since he's trying to turn "governing" into "passing governance off to God" I'm not sure there's a difference.| And I guess all those assholes who criticized Obama for statements made by Jeremiah Wright were justified? |
I wouldn't criticize these candidates for what their pastors say. I criticize them for what they say, which happens to be the same nutty shit as their pastors.| There is enough real stuff to fear from conservatives in America. |
Indeed, and I fear that stuff, too.| Things that they really do openly advocate and which are popular. |
The dominionists really do openly advocate this stuff which happens to not be popular, except amongst a certain crowd. Tea Partiers seem to love it, even if they're allegedly "all about fiscal responsibility." Once you get 'em talking, they don't seem to be able to keep up the pretense any longer.| It just seems paranoid and sensationalist to focus on stuff that if you were to ask a typical right winger on the street about, they'd look at you and say, "What the fuck are you talking about? We don't support that!" |
No, the typical right wingers don't support it, but the right-wing candidates play to the extreme right wing, and that gives the dominionists more power than they have just from being backed by billionaires like Ahmanson (who also funds the intelligent design creationists at the Discovery Institute, who are convincing school boards, state legislators and governors around the country to violate the Constitution - but it's not just the schools they're after). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 09:12:57 [Permalink]
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Yeah, the dominionists are a scary bunch, and it would be folly to dismiss them as too kooky to have an influence. Ed Brayton reports: | Rick Perry has named a “leadership team” for the Florida campaign and it includes some of the same dominionist whackos behind his prayer rally. Right Wing Watch reports on one of them, Pam Olsen, who heads the Tallahassee wing of the International House of Prayer. Here’s a video of her talking about seven mountains dominionism and her desire to take over the government — and about how she’s going to have the power to raise the dead soon. |
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 17:27:12 [Permalink]
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Dave: | If they manage to get 218 Representatives, 51 Senators and the Presidency, they'd have enough power to do whatever they want. |
First, I find the chance of that incredibly unlikely. Second, I find this statement simply not true. They would not have the power to do whatever they want. What you are suggesting is some really radical shit, and I simply don't accept that the American people or that the military and law enforcement would go along with whatever crazy shit a slim majority of the federal leadership dictated.
| Most of those historical battles have been waged by people who had a modicum of respect for the Constitution, but perhaps misunderstood it. The people I'm worried about are those who want to eliminate it and replace it with the Bible. |
Geez, how much power do you think these people actually have? They've been trying to get creationism taught in public schools alongside evolution for over twenty years. They've been devoting a shit-ton of money to it, and that's an issue where they actually have a large amount of support (or at least ambivalence) from the general public. But even when they resort to dressing up creationism as the more secular-appearing intelligent design theory, they still can't win. Of course regionally they win in the sense that in many highly conservative and religious parts of the country biology teachers are scoffing at evolution in class and teaching creationism anyway, but that's due to grassroots, local efforts to ignore the laws of the land, not because of powerful leaders in Washington. We could have all secular humanist leadership in Washington and they'd still be teaching creationism in backwoods Alabama's public schools.
| Actually, I'm sure that Palin and Bachmann are dominionists. |
Two candidates who surely won't get the nomination, wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning a general election, and of whom most certainly helped Barack Obama become president. And on top of that, both of them if they are dominionists try to hide it from the general population because they know it doesn't have widespread support. So what makes you think they would have the power even if they were president to instate Biblical law across the USA? The President of the USA doesn't have the power of a dictator.
| Rick Perry I'm not sure about, but since he's trying to turn "governing" into "passing governance off to God" I'm not sure there's a difference. |
There sure as hell is a difference. That rhetoric sounds like Libertarianism dressed up to appeal to religious righters.
| I wouldn't criticize these candidates for what their pastors say. I criticize them for what they say, which happens to be the same nutty shit as their pastors. |
And it is exactly the nutty things they say that is making them the butt of jokes in the media and that hurts their chances of winning general elections.
| The dominionists really do openly advocate this stuff which happens to not be popular, except amongst a certain crowd. Tea Partiers seem to love it, even if they're allegedly "all about fiscal responsibility." Once you get 'em talking, they don't seem to be able to keep up the pretense any longer. |
Biblical law including taking property rights away from women and having the death penalty for adultery and fornication? Who advocates that who isn't in the most fringe of crazy-land, even among Tea Partiers?
| No, the typical right wingers don't support it, but the right-wing candidates play to the extreme right wing, and that gives the dominionists more power than they have just from being backed by billionaires like Ahmanson (who also funds the intelligent design creationists at the Discovery Institute, who are convincing school boards, state legislators and governors around the country to violate the Constitution - but it's not just the schools they're after). |
I refer to my earlier point about the pathetic amount of "success" they are having relative to the amount of money and effort they have been pouring into changes the schools. Bachmann got kicked off a Board for a charter school for explicitly violating church state separation. These people have to spend tons of money just to keep treading water. If you think they are making leaps of progress in the legal arena, I think you have a distorted view of the truth.
I don't fear the politicians associated with this sort of shit. I fear the crazy masses. The grassroots. Basically I fear us losing the culture war. The leaders can't do shit without enough public support. I fear that if the economic situation and income disparity becomes too great in this country, we might hit a tipping point with regards to religious extremism. And then, and only then, will leaders have the power to instate Biblical law. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 19:08:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave: | If they manage to get 218 Representatives, 51 Senators and the Presidency, they'd have enough power to do whatever they want. |
First, I find the chance of that incredibly unlikely. Second, I find this statement simply not true. They would not have the power to do whatever they want. What you are suggesting is some really radical shit, and I simply don't accept that the American people or that the military and law enforcement would go along with whatever crazy shit a slim majority of the federal leadership dictated.| Most of those historical battles have been waged by people who had a modicum of respect for the Constitution, but perhaps misunderstood it. The people I'm worried about are those who want to eliminate it and replace it with the Bible. |
Geez, how much power do you think these people actually have? They've been trying to get creationism taught in public schools alongside evolution for over twenty years. They've been devoting a shit-ton of money to it, and that's an issue where they actually have a large amount of support (or at least ambivalence) from the general public. But even when they resort to dressing up creationism as the more secular-appearing intelligent design theory, they still can't win. Of course regionally they win in the sense that in many highly conservative and religious parts of the country biology teachers are scoffing at evolution in class and teaching creationism anyway, but that's due to grassroots, local efforts to ignore the laws of the land, not because of powerful leaders in Washington. We could have all secular humanist leadership in Washington and they'd still be teaching creationism in backwoods Alabama's public schools. |
Yes, but you're not understanding the consequences. If I had a half-plus-one majority in Congress, the Presidency, and a desire to replace the Constitution, the first thing I'd have these officials do is eliminate the filibuster, then defund the entire judicial branch of the government. No more checks and balances, period, just plain old mob rule. What process do the armed services have for dealing with such a scenario? What will happen is that eventually, they'll declare martial law, and half the armed forces will quit and disappear into the general populace. Some will hunker down in their home-made shelters waiting for thugs to come arrest them as traitors, and a few others will work on organizing a resistance movement or two, but they'll be vastly outnumbered and outgunned by the ones who stay with the new government.
The reason these people are funding creationist pushes in public schools is to get the local fundie voters riled up into such a froth that they'll elect radical right people to not only the school boards, but into state legislatures and governors' mansions. It doesn't matter if they lose court battles, because pushing creationism in science class isn't the ultimate goal. If it were and the legal fights mattered, they would have quit in 1969.| Actually, I'm sure that Palin and Bachmann are dominionists. |
Two candidates who surely won't get the nomination, wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning a general election, and of whom most certainly helped Barack Obama become president. |
Actually, the nomination of either of them is just what the country needs right now. It'd fracture the Republican Party and the moderates (who used to be right-wing lunatics themselves, but times change) who flee will form a party that can actually be reasoned with.| And on top of that, both of them if they are dominionists try to hide it from the general population because they know it doesn't have widespread support. |
Bachmann's made her religious angle known with her admission that she runs all her decisions past her husband. It's in the Bible, you know. Seriously, when she talks about religious matters, it's quite clear where she's coming from and what she wants to do. And it's not like she knows the Constitution very well, when she's asking for a job defending and executing it.| So what makes you think they would have the power even if they were president to instate Biblical law across the USA? The President of the USA doesn't have the power of a dictator. |
I don't. I said they need the Presidency and half-plus-one of both houses of Congress. With 40-someodd Tea Partiers in the House of Representatives already, they're almost 16% of the way to that goal.| Rick Perry I'm not sure about, but since he's trying to turn "governing" into "passing governance off to God" I'm not sure there's a difference. |
There sure as hell is a difference. That rhetoric sounds like Libertarianism dressed up to appeal to religious righters. |
Yeah! Do you think if he were to become President, he'd ignore the people who voted him in? Or would he run the country in such a way as to keep the religious right happy so they'd be likely to vote for him a second time?| I wouldn't criticize these candidates for what their pastors say. I criticize them for what they say, which happens to be the same nutty shit as their pastors. |
And it is exactly the nutty things they say that is making them the butt of jokes in the media and that hurts their chances of winning general elections. |
30 or 40 years ago, I would have said the same thing about the odds of them even being invited to RNC debates. Look at how times have changed.| Biblical law including taking property rights away from women and having the death penalty for adultery and fornication? Who advocates that who isn't in the most fringe of crazy-land, even among Tea Partiers? |
I don't think most of the regular folks who think Biblical law is a good idea think of these particular commandments. Most of them haven't read their Bibles well enough to know these laws exist (that's why the protest this thread is about was a good thing). But Pat Robertson, David Barton, everyone writing for the World Net Daily, Focus on the Family, most of the Quiverfull movement, they all know better, and want Mosaic law instituted anyway.
And the biggest problem is that we're only hearing from the fringe of crazy-land anymore, because the more moderate right-wingers have to appease these idiots in order to keep their jobs.| I don't fear the politicians associated with this sort of shit. I fear the crazy masses. The grassroots. Basically I fear us losing the culture war. The leaders can't do shit without enough public support. |
Yes, and they're gaining that support. For fuck's sake, Bachmann has only been pushed to a distant third in the Republican race because slightly less-crazy Rick Perry agreed to become a candidate.
And I bet Perry only did so because the saner people at the top of the RNC begged him to. If Obama gets his shit together, this election will likely be a loser for the Republicans, and voters won't look kindly on previous losers in 2016. If Perry's Presidential aspirations are genuine - if he really thinks that he can do a good job as President as defined in the Constitution - he was probably looking to wait until 2014 or so to announce his candidacy, when he wouldn't have to fight an incumbent.| I fear that if the economic situation and income disparity becomes too great in this country, we might hit a tipping point with regards to religious extremism. And then, and only then, will leaders have the power to instate Biblical law. |
If the dominionists didn't exist - if 99% of religious people were liberally religious - I wouldn't be nearly as worried because "religious extremism" might mean I'd have to go "officially" become a Unitarian. It'd still be unconstitutional, but it wouldn't involve the death penalty for wearing a poly/cotton shirt. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Atheist group to rip Bible pages
