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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2011 : 13:56:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
I know how fundamentalists think. They (as usual) think that they are being oppressed. They think that more and more of their kids are "turning from the word".
How funny is it that this mostly happens after the kids leave home? The fundamentalists think it's because "the world corrupts them". In truth, it's that without the constant pressure from clergy and family, they start thinking and doing research.
I understand this list. Every part but the last points apply to me in entirety. I was even raised in the middle of the woods, only leaving to shop or to go to church! My mother still says I'll come back to the faith... I hope I don't.
My theory on her "it's just a faze" idea is this: a lot of kids stop believing when they know more. But when they talk to their family, and things return to normal, they go back to the "comfortable" religion, and forget the flaws. Sound about right?
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This certainly reflects a lot of my own experience. As to returning to a religion despite its flaws -- it is very important to remember that a religion's "supernatural" doctrines are only a part of the hold it has on its followers. Quite often, in fact, people who identify with a particular sect are quite comfortable rejecting some elements of its dogma - it's not terribly difficult to find a devout Roman Catholic who rejects transubstantiation, for example. Paradoxically, many times people choose religion for the perfectly rational reason that they just want to be part of a welcoming and supportive community. These people might not believe in the virgin birth, but may hear my charge, "Your religion is a crock!" not as a cry for reason, but for nihilism and anarchy.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 15:33:47 [Permalink]
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Falconjudge wrote: | My theory on her "it's just a faze" idea is this: a lot of kids stop believing when they know more. But when they talk to their family, and things return to normal, they go back to the "comfortable" religion, and forget the flaws. Sound about right? |
I'm sure that is right for many. Although the fundamentalist movement today has a lot of converts, too, who are the product of slick and persistent proselytizing efforts.
I think you make a profound point in that most people are motivated to stick with a particular faith based on how they feel about the culture and community that comes with the religion. They feel, as you say, "comfortable". In fact, I often wonder how many adherents to certain faiths which are very community-based are secretly agnostic and atheist, but who go through the motions and say all the right things because they love the community and don't want to hurt or alienate those they love. Certainly I've met and read about a few people like this, and who knows how many are in the closet. The Pew Foundation survey revealed many inconsistencies between what religious identity and practice people take on and what they actually believe.
So if religious affiliation is really motivated by family and community (either through stability and closeness, which is good, or in other cases through peer pressure and fear-tactics, which is obviously bad) what could outsiders from those communities and families really do to stop the "indoctrination"? It seems that stopping the family and community influence would require disrupting family and community cohesion - somehow pushing them into being dysfunctional so that children won't have a positive emotional attachment to them after they are grown. But that would be abusive and cause all whole new set of problems for those people.
It seems to me that the best way to go about this is to keep trying to get positive secular role models out in the mainstream media, make sure we have solid and enforced standards for public education, that we enforce laws regarding child abuse and neglect, and get rid of religious exemptions. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 20:25:54 [Permalink]
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| I would guess that people in poorer environments are more susceptible to religion, so if we improve living conditions, we would reduce the number of fundamentalists. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 20:36:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
I would guess that people in poorer environments are more susceptible to religion, so if we improve living conditions, we would reduce the number of fundamentalists.
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Education is the great terminator of religion. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 21:05:49 [Permalink]
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| Education is one part of the equation, but if you're poor or scared, you won't have much self-esteem and are probably more likely to be "indoctrinated". |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 07:13:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
Education is one part of the equation, but if you're poor or scared, you won't have much self-esteem and are probably more likely to be "indoctrinated".
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The teachings also say that even if you're poor, you'll have treasure and peace in heaven. Again, that is very comfortable to believe. |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 08:24:12 [Permalink]
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People turn to religion because of emotional reasons. Humans have a lot of fear about death and loss and religion gives people comfort about these issues. The poor may be more susceptible. If something bad happens (tornados, serious illness), it is especially hard to recover and to know how to recover when you have little money. I think education gives people a way out of a seemingly hopeless situation. With education, you are exposed to different kinds of jobs and opportunities. If you live in an area where there are few jobs, then it is harder to imagine a way out of your situation.
If you feel trapped in a bad situation and you feel hopeless, religion gives you hope.
There is also social pressure. If all your friends and family are in the same church, it is hard to be different and risk social isolation.
Of course, all this doesn't explain why 2 people I know who went to Johns Hopkins, live in CT and have a decent income, have joined a fundamentalist church that doesn't "believe" in evolution. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 11:17:01 [Permalink]
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| Rich and poor both turn to religion when the inequalities between them are large. The poor for security, while the rich apparently want the poor to stop focusing on being poor (the rich get into religion in order to popularize it). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 11:44:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Falconjudge
Originally posted by podcat
Education is one part of the equation, but if you're poor or scared, you won't have much self-esteem and are probably more likely to be "indoctrinated".
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The teachings also say that even if you're poor, you'll have treasure and peace in heaven. Again, that is very comfortable to believe.
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It would be very interesting to compare histograms of countries' populations income level, and compare them to the apparent religiosity of the country.
The graphs will most likely show a correlation.
I'm absolutely certain that Falconjudge is on the right track, and as Dave indicated, it's in the rich's interest to maintain a high religiosity in the country.
Unless they realise that it's in their interest to see their country succeed in education, economical- and technological development.
Scandinavian countries has put a lot of emphasis on social and economical equality in the past, and I believe that this has paved the way for our national secularism (and the high percentage of atheists and agnostics). |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 19:22:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
(the rich get into religion in order to popularize it). |
Where'd this come from? Feels like the Greeks' "royal lies," but not sure I really see this at work. (Not that I wouldn't expect it from, e.g., those with control of some media, which is a rather small subset of "the rich.") |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 09/22/2011 19:23:52 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2011 : 07:09:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dave W.
(the rich get into religion in order to popularize it). |
Where'd this come from? Feels like the Greeks' "royal lies," but not sure I really see this at work. (Not that I wouldn't expect it from, e.g., those with control of some media, which is a rather small subset of "the rich.") |
It's called "Relative Power Theory," and I first read about it on Coyne's blog. "Deprivation Theory" (that the poor turn to religion for comfort) cannot explain rich people turning to religion more as economic inequality increases. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2011 : 12:25:50 [Permalink]
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The idea that the rich are drawn to religion as inequality widens makes sense. After all, in societies with a lot of disparity of wealth, the rich are always a tiny minority compared to the poor, so there is always the chance that despite how much wealth and power they have accumulated, the masses will revolt and heads will go flying.
Seems so much desirable and easier (and obviously more fair and humane) to just maintain societies with a moderate amount of wealth disparity and nobody too far on either extreme. That is basically how we evolved - in small groups where there were chiefs and such who had more status and power, but they still lived among and knew everyone else in the tribe, and even at the bottom of the social hierarchy nobody was starving. Problem is we live in societies that are so humongous, and where labor has become so extremely divided and specialized, that we'll never know most of the people whose lives we influence and who influence our lives.
If I start thinking about all the people I am somehow connected with but who we never will know, it is rather shocking to me that we in America maintain such a hyper-individualist mentality. I don't know who designed or made or who owns the factory that produced the friggin' clothes I'm wearing. Who processed the pasta and tuna I used to make lunch today? Who designed the packages they came in? Hell, who owns and works at the grocery store I bought them at? We are so incredibly dependent on each other in modern day societies, there is simply no ethical excuse for poverty and extreme disparity of wealth. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/23/2011 12:27:14 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2011 : 14:22:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dave W.
(the rich get into religion in order to popularize it). |
Where'd this come from? Feels like the Greeks' "royal lies," but not sure I really see this at work. (Not that I wouldn't expect it from, e.g., those with control of some media, which is a rather small subset of "the rich.") |
It's called "Relative Power Theory," and I first read about it on Coyne's blog. "Deprivation Theory" (that the poor turn to religion for comfort) cannot explain rich people turning to religion more as economic inequality increases.
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I see, I thought you meant that they didn't actually believe it but just said they did to get poor people to take solace in that (instead of trying to help them). Which I guess is sort of the theory in effect, just not necessarily by intent by the individuals. It makes sense that the situation (with respect to inequality) promotes the insecurity that seems to encourage increased rates of belief.
Don't like the use of "aggregate religiosity" without explaining how to find it or why it's a good metric -- a sin by the article, not the researchers I'm sure. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2011 : 17:55:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Don't like the use of "aggregate religiosity" without explaining how to find it or why it's a good metric -- a sin by the article, not the researchers I'm sure. |
Yeah, Coyne didn't say what the "several different indices of faith" the researchers used to create the "aggregate religiosity" measure were. I'm sure they're described in the article itself, but I haven't actually seen the full text. I would guess that the indices used were some of the 12 in figure 1 (which Coyne posted).
Wait, I found a shared copy. The stuff about the U.S. with the "aggregate religiosity" starts on page 12, with a reference to the metric the researchers used on page 13.
More of their conclusion:This work also makes an important contribution to our knowledge of the relationship between economic inequality and redistribution. In particular, it helps explain why economic inequality persists even in democratic societies. Because the citizen with the median income can form a majority with everyone poorer than him or her in favor of redistributive policies that provide benefits to the citizen that are equal to the efficiency losses due to taxation, and, for a given average income, rising inequality reduces the median income, democracies could be expected to respond to higher inequality with greater redistribution (e.g., Meltzer and Richard, 1981). Empirically, however, they do not consistently do so (e.g., Bénabou, 1996). The findings presented here suggest that one reason is that many wealthy individuals, rather than simply allowing redistribution to be decided through the democratic process as such median-voter models assume, respond to higher levels of inequality by adopting religious beliefs and spreading them among their poorer fellow citizens. Religion then works to discourage interest in mere material well-being in favor of eternal spiritual rewards, preserving the privileges of the rich and allowing unequal conditions to continue. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Stop your child from becoming an atheist
