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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  10:28:29  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So despite crap I hear about how they are supposedly disorganized, have unclear demands, or are the liberal equivalent of the "Tea Party", so far Occupy Wall Street seems to actually be doing pretty well with the American people.

Time did a poll that shows most Americans have favorable views of the protests and agree with the protesters on many points.
Other questions reveal a sharper split along partisan lines, but nonetheless reveal the strength of economic populism. Nearly 80% of respondents (96% of Democrats and 56% of Republicans) think think the class chasm between rich and poor has grown too large, and 68%, including 40% of Republicans, say the affluent should pay more taxes.


More detailed info.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2011 :  01:01:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg has asked OWS to leave Freedom Plaza so it can be "cleaned".

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/occupy-wall-street-issues-emergency-c

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2011 :  20:17:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This Modern World: What do they want?

http://www.credoaction.com/comics/2011/10/what-do-they-want/
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2011 :  22:02:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
marfknox said,,,
so far Occupy Wall Street seems to actually be doing pretty well with the American people.

They have no clue what their up against. Public opinion could switch overnight should provocateurs, possibly undercover police, starts some real violence on a larger scale than seen so far, that will be picked up by the press and paint them as hooligans and criminals. Their good press will evaporate in a flash, once our corporate controlled press gets their green light. Republicans and Democratic politicians Don't listen to you, me or unemployed, even if they have a degree. They listen to those who attend their $10,000 a plate fundraisers and single Million dollar donors. Which are out there.

They could be getting some real schooling. Nothing like they got in college. They think they are occupying wall street and being successful? I find that laughable. It's a fantasy. The power brokers of Wall Street do not sleep on the ground, in the park. They ride around in chauffeured limo's that cost them nothing, their paid for by their companies as a business expense. For the fat cat in the back it's a perk. Wall street doesn't eat in McDonold's and use their bathroom like these demonstrators are doing. What their doing, the demonstrators, is pretty lame when it comes to addressing the elephant in the room.

It is Wall Street that is occupying Washington DC and Congress. Wall Street's employees there are your elected politicians who work for them and not you, the common. Until that is addressed no real change can or will take place to alter the direction we are going. At an accelerating pace.
Our politicians got their biggest pay raises ever, when the supreme court overturn the restrictions on unlimited corporate financial vote manipulation, over a year and ten months ago. This decision by the Supreme Court was what I see as one of the last nails in our political and financial coffin. It was the death of fair elections. Like I've said before on another thread "They won't be happy until we have as much political power and individual financial wealth as the citizens of North Korea". I feel our political power has been castrated with a multitude of nefarious mechanisms. This is another, greatest show on earth. It has played throughout history whenever balances are eliminated and those in control go to far. This will all be over as the weather turns to winter. I know of NYC winters, I grew up there. Time is not on their side to get anything accomplished and camping in a city park is not going to bring the puppet master to their knees. I really expect this is over for this year. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2011 :  14:29:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SS, thanks for that bit of despair.

I don't think the expectation is to "bring the puppet master their knees." It is a start. But I suppose we could all just take your attitude, make your assumptions, and then just... er, what exactly are you proposing people do instead?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  11:47:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

SS, thanks for that bit of despair.
Sure, blame the messenger who dare speaks of bad news. I would be happy to say I'm wrong and I will, if I was he hear an argument that shows that's the case. I never said that they should not be there. I'm not seeing what the end game is in NYC. I, like you, wish that what they are doing would have a corrective impact but I don't know what it will produce before the weather closes them down. I did support their efforts in the first week, I gave to a fund to their effort for providing food. What little I could afford. I did so because I know very well that what their attempting to do is needed but I think they could be more effective in other ways. I'm was not trying to rain on their parade when I posted what I did.
posted by marfknox
I don't think the expectation is to "bring the puppet master their knees."
I detect that the quote rubs you but that is what I see is needed. I'm sorry my particular way of voicing my thoughts does that but my posts cannot please everyone every time. I would suggest not being distracted by how I write but focus on the ideas I trying to convey. Metaphors work for me, more than they work for you I've noticed. The citizens that vote and congress represents should be directing what legislation is passed not the most powerful corporations on the planet. Anyone or thing that controls the movement and actions of individuals can be called puppet masters in my mind, so I described those that direct our congress that way. It should be that the voters control what the government does but we don't, very large corporations do.

Does any one remember Obama claiming that when he got to Washington he was going to shake things up? Change the way government works? Specifically saying, to not continue with the Lobbyist influences in the workings of government. I do not see Obama's appointment of Michael Taylor as a Senior advisor to the FDA Commissioner as serving the citizens well being on food related health issues but really giving Monsanto a huge coup. Just one product sold by Monsanto is aspartame a FDA approved product. The approval time line is quite telling how corporations corrupt agencies to serve them. Today aspartame is in a great deal of processed foods. That one product accounts for > 1 billion dollars in sales a year for Monsanto, I've even read 3 B. but who knows. Donald Rumsfeld single handedly got aspartame approved by the FDA in the early 80's. Some very tell reading about the depth of corporate government infuences at the costs of the health of the people are in that time line. There were numerous studies and a majority of FDA's doctors opposed approval before Donald Rumsfeld fixed that.
Michael Taylor was just appointed senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. This is the same man that was in charge of FDA policy when GMO’s were allowed into the US food supply without undergoing a single test to determine their safety. He “had been Monsanto’s attorney before becoming policy chief at the FDA [and then] he became Monsanto’s Vice President and chief lobbyist. This month [he] became the senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. He is now America’s food safety czar. This is no joke.”

bolding mine.
Get that? This guy serves Monsanto and now he's the food czar appointed by our agent for CHANGE Obama. I am very pissed just posting about it. I keep having to edit out the cuss words, please excuse the few I have to leave in. That position belongs to an agent that will sever the people who eat and can have heath issues by what they approve, not by this in our face shill. The very fact that they would appoint such an obvious insider shows to me, if no one else, the degree of power they wield that they have no need to be more subtle than they are. That brings me much despair but I glad to have it because if they were more careful it would be harder to detect, expose and correct or demonstrate my points. The same guy, Obama, who said this kind of shit was going to stop and he was going to CHANGE how Washington works, is bowing to Monsanto on this appointment like a subject to their king. It makes me sick no effective objection could stop or correct this. Another thing, the tax reductions for the rich gifted to them by Bush was protected by Obama and renewed when he had a chance to let it expire. Who is he working for?

Anyone please tell me. Who is Obama working for? His actions, Washington actions, government agencies actions like the FDA are where you go to get your answer. The actions of the agency that ignored the many complaints and tips about Bernie Madoff show me that they are owned and do the bidding of Wall Street. They where not protecting the investors whom they were supposed to be when they had several "look in to's" and gave him no grief allowing him to escalate and increase the amount of financial damage he did to clueless conned investors. "Wall Street got bailed out, We got sold out", is one slogan the occupiers bandy about. Madoff's license to steel issued by regulators by their failure to act was another case. It will only continue until the government and the corrupted agencies are replaced with new personnel that will serve the people and not who they serve now.
posted by marfknox
It is a start. But I suppose we could all just take your attitude, make your assumptions, and then just... er, what exactly are you proposing people do instead?


That is the $64,000 question, to use a metaphor. [wink]
I think we should clean house. We need a bloodless revolution but with the corporate ownership and control of the national and local news outlets it won't be easy. Corporations are entities that have owners. They are not people who vote but they have the same political power of people. This needs to be changed. Property should not influence elections. "Plant seeds" should not push through their approval as food or the corporation that own them. That is exactly what is going on with GMO crops. I have read that 90% of Americans polled want to know if what they eat does or does not contain GMO products. Yet corporations, not the people eating this food, keeps that labeling requirement non existent in America and Canada. The ballot box is the only way to do this. I believe that until we establish a voting system that cannot be co-opted in any way and can perform accurate recounts in a timely manner, absolutely no real effective change can or will take place. Elections by the people of any government give that government validity and the authority to govern.

I italicized "in a timely manner" because in 2000 Florida had not finished their requested recount by Gore on December 9 when the Supreme Court ordered it's stop. Giving the state to Bush. Get that? they were still doing their recount on December 9,2000. If they hadn't finished a recount after 9 weeks, that tells me they never intended to do one but were only stalling until it was to late. Which is exactly what happened. MY FUCKING Vote was stolen. Your votes are valueless and no one seems to care or even notice. I find that very troubling. Maybe some day that will be corrected. I think that is paramount, among other things I touched upon.

No one here even want to entertain the thought that in the USA that in spite of consistent problems with every election it might have been corrupted. The people who control America are not the voters. That is what needs to be changed. What we got with government and the federal agencies is what the people in control want, until they are replaced by voters who originally held that power, I expect nothing to effectively change.

1999's repeal by Bill Clinton of the Glass Steagall Act of 1933, a Depression era law that created a firewall between commercial and investment banking. That I believe set up our current economic condition. Until that is reversed we're fucked financially by those who pushed that through. There is a lot that needs correcting that was put into motion in the last 20 years or more. This is what corporate political has brought since they took political control away from the voters.

In wanting to best understand the Occupy Wall St. Movement I found this article to be a clear path to what are the fundamental problems that created this economic mess. How we choose to make the changes is a delicate dance as being witnessed now. One thing that rings true throughout history is the flow of money going into the politicians pockets and the Supreme Court is the biggest problem we face. The system is broken. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  12:15:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading the above.
I am not a professional writer, I have no proof reader directing the proper delivery of the thoughts I'm trying to get across. I hope I did an adequate job. I wish I could do it better than I did but one gets to a point where they've spent enough time on a post and must move on. It's not perfect, I know.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  00:28:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right now, the protestors are getting attention and getting their message out. The NYPD really ended up helping the OWS cause.

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  11:45:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SS, you speak not of bad news, but bring bad attitude. I haven't disagreed with any of the actual fact you've brought forth. I certainly didn't fall for the "change" rhetoric of Obama during the election. It was pretty clear to anyone with any political savvy during the 2008 primaries that Obama is just another moderate Democrat like the Clintons and Gore, and pretty much any other Democratic candidate who would have a reasonable shot at becoming president. That's hardly the point.

I take issue with you complaining about the Occupy Wallstreet demonstrations and your totally fatalistic predictions and attitude toward its potential. Your predictions are not facts. Your fatalism is not fact. I ask you what you think people should do, and you say "We need a bloodless revolution..." I whole-heartedly agree with that, and who is to say that sort of revolution can't begin in this fashion - with peaceful demonstrations that have the support of the majority of Americans. I do not agree with your assumption that the powers that be will orchestrate some sort of set-up to make the demonstrators look violent and turn public opinion against them. I suppose that is a possibility, but these demonstrations are going on all over, and such smear tactics would always risk being discovered, especially if they were part of a widespread conspiracy.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  21:15:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, the last time I was here I read podcat's post and marfknox had not posted. I came back now to reply now and find marfknox posted too.
Originally posted by marfknox

SS, you speak not of bad news, but bring bad attitude.
I see your point and agree, it's not productive. I figured that out with your "despair" comment but not right away. I intended to comment. Also I never gave suggestions to your "what exactly are you proposing people do instead?". Thanks for saying that anyway, your right. I don't want to be negative, that's bad.
I take issue with you complaining about the Occupy Wallstreet demonstrations and your totally fatalistic predictions and attitude toward its potential. Your predictions are not facts. Your fatalism is not fact. I ask you what you think people should do, and you say "We need a bloodless revolution..." I whole-heartedly agree with that, and who is to say that sort of revolution can't begin in this fashion - with peaceful demonstrations that have the support of the majority of Americans. I do not agree with your assumption that the powers that be will orchestrate some sort of set-up to make the demonstrators look violent and turn public opinion against them. I suppose that is a possibility, but these demonstrations are going on all over, and such smear tactics would always risk being discovered, especially if they were part of a widespread conspiracy.
No they're not facts, their possibilities and not impossible because it's been reported to have happened and attempted. I had this on my mind, it happened in '07. Check down the right side of the page I don't feel this is a isolated instance. I've spent some time viewing these clips. For those who have some time it could be educational. I don't imagine that this was the first time they tried this but it could be. Possibly it's been in their play book before that week, maybe not, There's no way of knowing but if one does not take this seriously that would be foolish, IMO. It's not enough to see this but to try and understand what is going on with the authorities thinking that they feel free to use this kind of tactics on people they are supposed to be working for and why the riot police are directed to do this to protestors. The police will do this and worse and I don't think I'm being negative by pointing this out. I could be wrong. Only by exchanging impressions might a more correct, collective view be known. I'm open to other views.

The videos show many cases. In the one I linked to, I see that they had big rocks and they were law enforcement. If them rocks were used by the police in Quebec that could give all those, fully riot ready, storm troopers all they needed for a green light to crack some heads. Mayhem could easily have started. The start of violence by the police would not be blamed on them in the nightly news but on the protestor. Some may disagree and I'm not trying to be snarky, just saying. I find this kind of behavior very criminal but it's not. It's not when done by the police. Who can deny torture has officially carried out by our government and not addressed when exposed. In violation of international laws and treaties. NO ONE would and in this case no one was held responsible for what we saw, it just goes away. Kent state had students murdered and no one was held accountable for that. This is what I was thinking when I said " They have no clue what their up against." I don't really think that now, after reflection. As you pointed out marf they are doing very well getting their message out. I believe that the violence we've seen with OWS are police instigated and the protestors are staying together and are watchful not be provoked further. I've read how some protestors are keeping others at bay, for the safety of all. All the video phones are there too. All it would take is one or several pain clothed cop to break a some big windows and the riot squad will start swinging on cue. From the videos I've seen the police working under cover as protestors don't work alone. For their safety no doubt. When protestors are set upon by riot clad, bat wailing police, pandemonium would ensue. I don't think that is wild speculation. I'm just pointing out a real danger with the people taking back their country from the clutches of who controls it now, corporations. Ias I said before government serves corporations not the people these days. The establishment doesn't want demonstrations, ever, but when they have one they crack down no matter how peaceful the protestor try to keep it. Given enough time the police will be turned loose and crack down. It's what people in power do when pushed enough. It goes with police cracking heads and causing pain.

Is there OWS provocation by police on video? Yes! This video is 1:36 long, it was the weekend that started the third week for OWS with no real violence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQBYDMcEf8I]until this[/url]. It was clearly a higher level cop that did this . He has been identified. Anyone want to bet he won't be held accountable for this provocation? Winner donates 10 bucks to the movement. Say within 4 months. I'll give 4 to 1, my $40 to any $10, one bet. The NYPD is being careful after this went viral. Other "occupy" demonstrations are being handled harder than the New Yorkers protest. Interesting.
I don't believe I was being over speculative before and I was not say this will happen but commenting on possibilities having seen these videos to base my thoughts on.
Americans have, on paper, the right to peaceably protest but not in reality. Today there are restrictions and they were not written where these "rights" were granted. We have the right to petition our govern only with their permission these days. We can only demonstrate where and when they say. That's not a right with those restrictions. This will not go away, more people are waking up now that the abuse of power is fucking with people further up the latter. As history shows, people only speak up when the injustice affects them and a lot of people are being affected. I wonder how many people realize how much the government might resist the changes the people will be demanding. I feel we are in for interesting times. This is international.

How can we organize and get this done over the internet? That's the only safe way I can think but how can it be done? SS

PS I find what I believe to be the corruption of our voting process very problematic. If it is a fact, that must change for the people to return to their proper place as sovereign citizens of this country. That's another topic. What is Sovereign Citizenship? Read.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 10/23/2011 21:22:18
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  06:45:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A 24 year old marine who has done 2 tours of Iraq has received a critical brain injury inflicted by police while he was participating in Occupy Oakland.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  06:53:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SS, I read the thing on Sovereign Citizenship, but it just doesn't resonate with me. I cared about ideas more ten years ago. Now I'm just a pragmatist. And while I'm aware that there are core values that my pragmatic ethics are built on, I don't much anymore to elaborately discuss or try to put into words those core values. I can only say that I am in support of Occupy Wallstreet, I am excited and hopeful about its potential to be a catalyst for real change (At this point I'm way more hopeful about its potential than I was about Obama's election. Lots of people thought Obama would be that catalyst, but the only good thing he really does is stop the country from going too far into the crazyland of the Right wing.) Maybe this will just be a blip, and real change is still far off and will only come after things have gotten a lot worse. But maybe this is it. Only time will tell, and as individuals, all we can do is speak and act out in accordance with what we think is right and hope for the best.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  09:42:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

A 24 year old marine who has done 2 tours of Iraq has received a critical brain injury inflicted by police while he was participating in Occupy Oakland.
It seems that the police believe that the common citizen is just something they feel has to be beat into submission. We have militarized cities police departments. They are well equipped to do what their told, with immunity. I hope he recovers fully.
SS, I read the thing on Sovereign Citizenship, but it just doesn't resonate with me. I cared about ideas more ten years ago. Now I'm just a pragmatist. And while I'm aware that there are core values that my pragmatic ethics are built on, I don't much anymore to elaborately discuss or try to put into words those core values.

I can understand that.
I can only say that I am in support of Occupy Wallstreet, I am excited and hopeful about its potential to be a catalyst for real change (At this point I'm way more hopeful about its potential than I was about Obama's election. Lots of people thought Obama would be that catalyst, but the only good thing he really does is stop the country from going too far into the crazyland of the Right wing.) Maybe this will just be a blip, and real change is still far off and will only come after things have gotten a lot worse. But maybe this is it. Only time will tell, and as individuals, all we can do is speak and act out in accordance with what we think is right and hope for the best.
I agree. I do support the OWS movement very much on principal and I to get excited at times. However, I really don't see how sleeping in a park through the winter is going to change how corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money on elections thus affecting election outcomes to their benefit. I've been asked elsewhere "what do you suggest?". I answer now saying I think it necessary to first establish what is wrong before any direction is chosen and in what way the correction be done. Money promoting or opposing ballot issues with groups that have titles like Citizens for Democracy or some similar sheep skin label when that group has only 1 or 2 large corporate donors, I see as a fatal flaw. This is a relative new power granted by the Supreme Court to deep pockets influences. Politicians are put in the place where they have to legislate a change that will, in reality, cost them millions of dollars in direct contributions, pack dollars and more. Something many in congress will never do. They have to be replaced by players who will have different allegiances. Providing a few million dollars for advertising campaigns by the few, greatly tips the balance of power away from the voters, to the few. That has got to change. I see giving assets (corporations) unlimited political free speech through their dollars as a corruption inducing practice. That has got to change.

American voters has to eliminate this kind of influence on elections which sells out their vote. I wish I had some known way to affect these needed changes. Surely banding together in unprecedented numbers will be required to neuter the effects of this cash influence. I can see that the internet and social networking must be put to greater wide spread use for this to happen. I imagine because this ability, to group and communicate digitally, is a recent arrival to individuals that did not exist some 10 years ago, it is still not used to it's fullest value. That is changing of course. Can that be speed up? I have been avoiding using social networking to date but nearly everyone I know does email. I don't know, could the organizers of OWS be using FB, text msg'ing and twitter more that email on a whole? Like older people I am blind to those activities. I don't want a smart phone for my internet access. The fucking screen is to small! They, OWS people, don't benefit fully from the great number of people who are like me? Being a member of corvette club is less empowering than being a member of AAA. People of every subgroup need to be united under some kind of unifying umbrella that steers the movement as one.

I not offering solutions, I know, just trying to raise what influences I feel are involved and throwing out what we have at hand to use for change. Thoughts? Disagreements? Tell me to shut up? Oh well!

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 10/31/2011 09:50:24
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  10:20:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Protests can only put pressure on "the system." It happens that OWS is very popular. What it has done is to change the dialog from debt to jobs. It also exposes the lack of real regulation of the financial institutions which the media is now reporting on. The idea behind any demonstration is to raise awareness of the problem. So sure, things need to be done at the ballot box, but as more and more Americans weigh in, mostly supporting OWS, that in itself puts pressure on politicians to respond. As support for the movement goes up, those politicians who are still pushing for continuing deregulation, and insisting on not taxing cooperation's by removing subsidies, and are not on board with taxing the highest wage earners at a higher rate to help pay for new job creation do so at their own peril. Banks refusing to lend for new home buyers or to rewrite mortgages with negative equity do so at their own peril as consumers move their money to smaller banks and credit unions.

Game on.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  11:29:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SS wrote:
It seems that the police believe that the common citizen is just something they feel has to be beat into submission. We have militarized cities police departments. They are well equipped to do what their told, with immunity. I hope he recovers fully.
It is not that simple. I'm sick of people just pissing all over police as if they are all evil. Their job is incredibly dangerous. Many of them die in the line of duty, and they all know this is a risk. Yeah, the job attracts many John Wayne types who can be assholes, and there have been plenty of cases of police brutality and abuse of power by police. That said, not every police officer or police department dealing with Occupy Wallstreet protests around this country have been abusive. And in many cases they are simply providing necessary security that helps to facilitate a safe and peaceful protest. We haven't had any problems with Occupy Philadelphia. The city and demonstrators have been in communication and cooperation. The city issued the demonstrators a permit and the city has spent about $500,000 so far, mostly on police overtime to help maintain peoples' safety, and things have worked out so far.

I do support the OWS movement very much on principal and I to get excited at times. However, I really don't see how sleeping in a park through the winter is going to change how corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money on elections thus affecting election outcomes to their benefit. I've been asked elsewhere "what do you suggest?". I answer now saying I think it necessary to first establish what is wrong before any direction is chosen and in what way the correction be done. Money promoting or opposing ballot issues with groups that have titles like Citizens for Democracy or some similar sheep skin label when that group has only 1 or 2 large corporate donors, I see as a fatal flaw. This is a relative new power granted by the Supreme Court to deep pockets influences. Politicians are put in the place where they have to legislate a change that will, in reality, cost them millions of dollars in direct contributions, pack dollars and more. Something many in congress will never do. They have to be replaced by players who will have different allegiances. Providing a few million dollars for advertising campaigns by the few, greatly tips the balance of power away from the voters, to the few. That has got to change. I see giving assets (corporations) unlimited political free speech through their dollars as a corruption inducing practice. That has got to change.
Okay, but I still don't see you advocating anything specific and practical. Occupy Wallstreet is what we got so far. It is a start. Hopefully it will lead to meaningful changes to solve the problems you describe. We really I think are in agreement with each other about all the important points.

I imagine because this ability, to group and communicate digitally, is a recent arrival to individuals that did not exist some 10 years ago, it is still not used to it's fullest value. That is changing of course. Can that be speed up? I have been avoiding using social networking to date but nearly everyone I know does email. I don't know, could the organizers of OWS be using FB, text msg'ing and twitter more that email on a whole?
We of course won't know the impact until the future unfolds since all of this is unprecedented. The possibilities are many and rather huge. I find it reason to be excited and cautiously hopeful to be alive in this age of rapidly changing technology.

Like older people I am blind to those activities. I don't want a smart phone for my internet access. The fucking screen is to small!
I don't have a smart phone and I have no intention of getting one either. I kind of hate them. But it doesn't stop me from using my desktop computer and laptop computer. There are plenty of options and you can stick with what is most comfortable and affordable for you.

They, OWS people, don't benefit fully from the great number of people who are like me?
Seems a loss on both sides. Maybe you should be more pro-active about engaging in this manner. Age is no excuse. Older people of sound mind are perfectly capable of learning and using the basics of this technology. It's not like younger people are smarter. The oldest blogger I believe is in her 90's.

Being a member of corvette club is less empowering than being a member of AAA. People of every subgroup need to be united under some kind of unifying umbrella that steers the movement as one.
I think you greater underestimate the number of people online. Just 5 years ago my Humanist group had a significant number of members who weren't using email or the website. Today I can't even think of any members who are totally offline. Three of our older members who refused to get online have since died, and the others eventually got computers and have become quite excited about the enriched access they have to information and communication. A couple of our members in their 70's even started blogs. Not to mention the HUGE amount of money we now save by not having to do paper mailings! At my husband's job they have gone almost completely paperless. No paper checks, all direct deposit. No paper applications. I know this transition is tough on certain people, but my gosh, consider just the saved resources! Overall this is a good thing.


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

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sailingsoul
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Posted - 10/31/2011 :  21:30:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil


Game on.
Freaking A, Kil.

Marf You make a good point about the cops, thay are necessary for a civil society. I was addressing the most aggressive actions. Particularly like during these demonstrations. I should have made that clear. There are different cities with different city councils, mayors and police departments. Obviously this all goes in the mix. As the news has been reporting different "occupy" movements in cities across the country, they have had varying degrees of police violence at times, during these occupy protests. Would NYC collapse and fall into chaos, if they behaved like Fullerton, CA ?
A five-hour Irvine, Orange County, CA city council meeting ended with the council unanimously agreeing that the Occupy tents on the town hall's lawn were a form of free speech and vowing to "add the needs of 'The 99%' to their official agenda." Afterwards, the mayor asked the protesters if they needed any more blankets.
Albany, NY has avoided violence too, by choice. These political servant get it, others don't. Their police department most likely won't be needed to exercise their riot training when creating an incident. Everyone will be better off by not having unnecessary friction.
All your points have merit. FYI, I'm not just hanging out here in paradise doing nothing but this. You say I should get involved, I am involved. I am fighting Monsanto and GMO food products. I have no problem at all with anyone eating it, I choose not to but I have no way of knowing which foods are or have GMO products in them because Monsanto who is in bed with my congress refuse to pass legislation that requires the labeling of GMO food products in the USA. The labeling is required in Russia, China , European Union, New Zealand, Norway, Japan, Australia, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Switzerland, Taiwan at present and being voluntary in many others. I read 85% of Americans are in favor of labeling so why don't we have it? Monsanto is one reason. I won't get into it but to say Monsanto is big into GMO's. California has their initiative process and The Organic Consumers Ass. has just started organizing in California to collect 500,000 signatures to get a GMO labeling bill put on the 2012 ballot in Ca.. I would like to believe that if I lived in Claifornia, I had, I would help collecting signatures on this. If that get's passed, I will benefit from it, I believe. If any one is interested I got this emailed to me last week. GMO Ballot Initiative Video. Seeing how I don't live there, I threw some of my God bucks their way. You know the money I don't give to church any more. We do what they can. As Kil said, Game on.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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