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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2011 : 16:40:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave.....
| Only if "ritual" implies irrationality or childishness, right? |
I am using the word "ritual" in all of it's several dictionary definitions referring to religious practice:1 : the forms of conducting a devotional service especially as established by tradition or by sacerdotal prescription : the prescribed order and words of a religious ceremony
2 a: a code or system of rites
3 a: a book containing the rites or ceremonial forms to be observed by an organization (as a church or fraternal society) b : the verbal formulas of ritual
4 :an act of ritual |
My opinion is that all of the ceremonial activity of religious practice is irrational and much of it is indeed childish. I will be delighted for you to suggest to me a religious ritual, in the sense of the dictionary definitions quoted, that you consider rational. |
Only the first definition, with its inclusion of "devotional," seems inherently religious.
Marriage ceremonies, even quite elaborate ones, when stripped of their religious content are not necessarily irrational.Wiki offers further elaboration of my opinion of ritual:| A ritual is a set of actions, performed mainly for their symbolic value. |
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Indeed.| What religious rituals do you consider to be rational behavior? |
I thought this was about separating rituals from religions. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2011 : 17:10:11 [Permalink]
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For me, I guess spirituality has more to do with emotional connections to things and people, rather than an intellectual one. I do not consider myself especially spiritual person, but I do appreciate good music, and good stories. I suppose that is what made me susceptible to the allurement of the church in my teens. I committed myself hole-heartedly to the Pentecostal church in my somewhat troubled youth, and found great comfort in the rituals there. Those were made to take advantage of emotional movements to tie their members even tighter to the church.
Eventually, I realised and recognised the brainwashing I had subjected myself to, how the church used those emotions prompted by those rituals. When I intellectually started to examine what I was doing, I saw what I was doing to myself and started to question my station in faith and in the church.
My spirituality didn't disappear, it just changed focus. Away from religion to emotional appreciation of the greater world, the reality of ... reality. I get emotionally moved by a severe thunder storm: impressed, scared, exhilarated by close lightning strikes and the deafening boom of the thunder loud enough to make my chest hurt. I'm moved by the beauty of the stars, and the Milky-way on a pitch-black night, and watching Saturn's rings through my telescope. I appreciate good music, to the point of having been a musician myself, and there's a strong emotional connectedness to the other members of my band when everything in a good song comes together just right. Even an emotional connect with the audience at a concert when they connected to me, as I connected with the music. Which all makes us a part of something greater than just ourselves.
Getting emotionally moved this way is how I see spirituality. Our ability to connect to something larger than ourselves. Rituals help us accomplish that, though unfortunately religious institutions have found a way to use rituals to take advantage of that spirituality for their own gain.
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2011 : 18:37:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I will be delighted for you to suggest to me a religious ritual, in the sense of the dictionary definitions quoted, that you consider rational.
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Contemplation/meditation - Delight away. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2011 : 18:44:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
For me, I guess spirituality...
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The working word provided was specifically spiritualism, and because of the ism it has a very different (though it may seem subtle) common use definition. I suspect bngbuck knew what word he wanted for his purpose and also think perhaps he hoped it would get distorted, allowing equivocation through others participation in the topic.
But the reason I asked is that the root of either and all similar words posits a spirit. If we are talking about team or school spirit that is one thing, but if we are talking about immaterial essence or soul, that is another. The definition will subsequently define the answer to the question. |
| Edited by - chefcrsh on 11/19/2011 18:46:08 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2011 : 19:03:15 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
| I enjoy taking part in such things as Passover, and Hanukkah. There is ritual involved in both of those activities. The rituals are fun and the food is good. |
I don't understand what the quality of the food has to do with the ritual, but then again I'm not Jewish, only a wannabe. I appreciate your having fun playing silly games and I also appreciate the fact that you completely recognize the irrationality of, and the origin of, the symbolic posturing of a non-event.| taking part in the ritual because it's fun is not irrational with fun, family and good food as the motive. |
If the irrational celebration is a necessity for you to have an occasion of having fun and good food with your family, I completely understand your taking part in the silly celebrations. I am sorry that you can't do it for it's own sake without the sophistry of the religious tradition.
I am not capable of truly understanding, not ever having any religious tradition in the original family of my childhood/early adulthood; nor having had any such traditions in my current family of wife and children. But taking part in any activity just for fun or food is certainly not irrational, as long as the intent is to have fun and enjoy, not to seriously believe that one is doing homage to a deity or deitys. Also, that no damage or insult is done to others, which I do feel has happened in instances of religious celebration. Some of the ancient Mayan practices come to mind.
I did not intend to suggest that any association with a religious celebration is irrational as long as the motive for such involvement remains rational. I usually have a hell of a lot of fun at Christmas, which is certainly a significant religious ceremonial period for a great many people. Some of them are compelled to act out ritual ceremonies because they actually believe in the phony history that Christmas purports to represent. Most (I suspect) are far more interested in the eating, drinking, and gift-giving/receiving that is associated with Christmas; rather than the celebration of a highly improbable birth - itself a product of an impossible pregnancy.
Val stated that his involvement in Wicca somehow provided him with help in an ongoing momentum of his toward self-improvement. Although I find this pretty odd, I guess I partly understand that he truly does not believe his own bullshit. Neither do you. Your trade-off for tolerating minor episodes of irrationality is receiving good food and fun. Val's is becoming a better person in some way or another.
If really good wine and genuinely delicious canape crackers were served as the fare of transubstantiation ceremonies, I would wager that a great many more folks would attend Catholic Mass than currently do. The majority of them would have no more faith in the symbolic, much less supposed real magic purportedly attendant to such celebrations than I do - which is to say, none.
So deck the halls with matzo balls and mazeltov to you. Just don't start believing in the bull elephant shit that's in the room!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2011 : 20:47:31 [Permalink]
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Bill:
If the irrational celebration is a necessity for you to have an occasion of having fun and good food with your family, I completely understand your taking part in the silly celebrations. I am sorry that you can't do it for it's own sake without the sophistry of the religious tradition. |
Oh. We do that too. But hey, the actual Seder is fun. I don't require it for a good meal with my family. It's a once a year event, and it's one we all enjoy. Simple as that. And Bill. You would probably have a blast going through the Haggadah with us. I have to say, a potato dipped in salt water on passover is as tasty as a hotdog is at a ballpark. Another ritual meal that I love. And you know what? There would probably be no such thing as matzo ball soup if there weren't a passover tradition.  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2011 : 04:09:45 [Permalink]
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Chefcrsh....
I asked this:
| suggest to me a religious ritual, in the sense of the dictionary definitions quoted, that you consider rational. |
You answered:| "Contemplation/meditation - Delight away." |
Thank you for the invitation.
First....Contemplation is defined by wiki as:| contemplation refers to a content-free mind directed towards the awareness of God as a living reality. |
Wiki notes that: | Scholars have noted that "the term 'meditation' as it has entered contemporary usage" is parallel to the term "contemplation" in Christianity |
...And Webster says:| 1 a : meditation on spiritual things as a form of private devotion: a state of mystical awareness of God's being or presence : an ecstatic perception of God - a state of rapture ... in which the soul is freed from its senses and organs and lost in pure contemplation |
From wiki:
| A ritual is a set of actions, performed mainly for their symbolic value. |
From Webster again, Ritual is defined as:
1 : the forms of conducting a devotional service especially as established by tradition or by sacerdotal prescription : the prescribed order and words of a religious ceremony.
2 a : a code or system of rites (as of a fraternal society)
b : any practice done or regularly repeated in a set precise manner so as to satisfy one's sense of fitness and often felt to have a symbolic or quasi-symbolic significance.
3 a :a book containing the rites or ceremonial forms to be observed by an organization (as a church or fraternal society) b : the verbal formulas of ritual
4 : an act of ritual. |
It appears to me that neither the words contemplation or meditation in any way fit the authoritative definitions of ritual - in that no action, single or concerted movement, or easily perceived physical activity is involved in either of the introspective mental states of contemplation or meditation. Some activity of some sort, usually involving numbers of worshippers or the like engaging in some type of activity (dancing, bowing, prostrating, holy rolling, etc.) is necessary for an event to be seen as a ritual.
To the contrary, a lack of perceived activity involving the sensory modalities is one of the primary hallmarks defining either a state or condition of contemplation or meditation. A trance-like state is often described.
If you simply wish to make up a definition of either of these two states of mental activity as an action of some sort, and then pronounce it as constituting a ritual, don't let a few common accepted definitions of the words restrain your exuberance; however I prefer to use established authority when it comes to word definitions, rather than my own notions of what I would like it to mean. I asked for an example of a ritual in the sense of the dictionary definitions quoted. The words, Contemplation and Meditation simply do not fit that criteria.
So define away, Chef.
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2011 : 05:55:08 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by bngbuck.... |
Seriously? You seriously contend that contemplation(aka prayer)/meditation are not deep religious rituals and present in every known religious school? Hell about the only ritual practice of some buddhist schools and of contemplative Christian monks is meditation.
A hint for you, they match the following exactly.
b : any practice done or regularly repeated in a set precise manner so as to satisfy one's sense of fitness and often felt to have a symbolic or quasi-symbolic significance. |
| To the contrary, a lack of perceived activity involving the sensory modalities is one of the primary hallmarks defining either a state or condition of contemplation or meditation. A trance-like state is often described. |
Are you completely ignorant of all the rules and specific physical actions involved in these practices (hand signs, sitting postures, kneeling postures, specific locations, specific scents, sounds etc.) or are you just ignoring them in an attempt to appear obtuse?
And just to play the dictionary game with a sophist...
OED:
action |#712;akSH#601;n|
noun
1 the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim: he vowed to take tougher action against persistent offenders | if there is a breach of regulations, we will take action .
• the way in which something such as a chemical has an effect or influence: the seeds require the catalytic action of water to release hotness.
• armed conflict: servicemen listed as missing in action during the war.
• a military engagement: a rearguard action.
• the events represented in a story or play: the action is set in the country.
• informal exciting or notable activity: the nonstop action of mountain biking | people in the media want to be where the action is .
• informal betting.
• [ as exclamation ] used by a movie director as a command to begin: lights, camera, action!
2 a thing done; an act: she frequently questioned his actions | I would not be responsible for my actions if I saw him.
• a legal process; a lawsuit: an action for damages.
• a gesture or movement: his actions emphasized his words.
3 a manner or style of doing something, typically the way in which a mechanism works or a person moves: a high paddle action in canoeing | the weapon has speed and smooth action.
• the mechanism that makes a machine or instrument work: a piano with an escapement action.
ritual |#712;riCHo#862;o#601;l|
noun
a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order: the ancient rituals of Christian worship | the role of ritual in religion.
• a prescribed order of performing such a ceremony, esp. one characteristic of a particular religion or church.
• a series of actions or type of behavior regularly and invariably followed by someone: her visits to Joy became a ritual.
adjective [ attrib. ]
of, relating to, or done as a religious or solemn rite: ritual burial.
• (of an action) arising from convention or habit: the players gathered for the ritual pregame huddle.
meditate |#712;med#601;#716;t#257;t|
verb [ no obj. ]
think deeply or focus one's mind for a period of time, in silence or with the aid of chanting, for religious or spiritual purposes or as a method of relaxation.
• (meditate on/upon) think deeply or carefully about (something): he went off to meditate on the new idea.
• [ with obj. ] plan mentally; consider: they had suffered severely, and they began to meditate retreat.
DERIVATIVES
meditator |-#716;t#257;t#601;r|noun
ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from Latin meditat- ‘contemplated,’ from the verb meditari, from a base meaning ‘measure’; related to mete1.
contemplation |#716;känt#601;m#712;pl#257;SH#601;n|
noun
the action of looking thoughtfully at something for a long time: the road is too busy for leisurely contemplation of the scenery.
• deep reflective thought: he would retire to his room for study or contemplation.
• the state of being thought about or planned.
• religious meditation.
• (in Christian spirituality) a form of prayer or meditation in which a person seeks to pass beyond mental images and concepts to a direct experience of the divine.
OED Thesaurus: ritual
noun
an elaborate civic ritual: ceremony, rite, ceremonial, observance; service, sacrament, liturgy, worship; act, practice, custom, tradition, convention, formality, procedure, protocol.
contemplation
noun
1 the contemplation of beautiful objects: viewing, examination, inspection, observation, survey, study, scrutiny.
2 the monks sat in quiet contemplation: thought, reflection, meditation, consideration, rumination, deliberation, reverie, introspection, brown study; formal cogitation, cerebration.
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| Edited by - chefcrsh on 11/20/2011 06:05:10 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2011 : 16:19:31 [Permalink]
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Chefcrsh.....
Quicknote.....
Thanks for the challenges. One of my primary reasons for participation in SFN dialog is highly necessary mental exercise for my aging facilities. I appreciate your help. You have given me a good deal of material, to which I will attempt to respond soon.
Unfortunately, my workload is extremely high this coming week; the market is quite volatile, and my schedule requires a good deal of food preparation for a sizeable party on Thursday.
I'll try to get back to you by the end of the week after cleaning up the dishes. Read up in your dictionaries! |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2011 : 04:58:05 [Permalink]
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Bngbuck wrote:
| Probably because your Catholic upbringing has deep roots of childhood fantasy that have not yet been eliminated by sufficient absorption of enough adult rationality. Living another fifty years or so will probably help. |
Wow, could you be any more condescending? You do realize you just made an ageist comment, right? My age has nothing to do with this, and by saying the above, you are essentially discounting my opinions because I am relatively young (although I would think being in my 30’s and being incredibly active in the freethought movement for 14 years now would count for something!) The woman in my Humanist group who spoke about “spiritual” experiences and the broccoli turning green is in her 70’s, has been a secular humanist for decades.
So in your view, being truly rational includes only using words in a strictly literal and conventional sense, even when the alternative way in which you mean is abundantly clear. Methinks such an assertion is not objective, and therefore not strictly rational.
I mean, let’s be clear here, using the term “spiritual” only within contexts where it will be clearly understood by the listener/reader, that one is speaking/writing from a secular point of view breaks no rules of critical thinking. I don’t advocate or approve using terms like “spiritual” in articles where they can and will be easily misunderstood. But I definitely find a use for them I certain contexts, and I find a use for them because there are no other words that have an equally suitable connotation.
An example: In college I wrote a poem called “Soulful Atheist” and dedicated it to a friend. We were both atheists and leaders in a local freethought group, so we have a good understanding of each other. I read this poem with that friend in the audience at a live performance. Afterward, I could tell by his facial expression that he had been deeply moved by the poem, and I was so moved by the moment that I spontaneously went up and embraced and kiss him on the cheek. This is an incredibly powerful memory for me, and one which brought two friends closer. That brief connection and experience would never have happened if the genre of poetry didn’t allow for the use of traditionally religious terms such as “soul” to be applied from a secular point of view. (Also, my friend was raised secular humanist, so he had no religious baggage from his childhood, and yet he still could understand and be moved by my use of religious terms as they can be applied to atheism.)
Language evolves exactly because the set of vocabulary in any language in its current, literal form may be insufficient for what the speaker wants to express, and it is then that we often end up pushing the meaning of certain words (or making up new words) to get closer to what we mean. It is not irrational to use words in unconventional ways if the goal and intention is more precise and more meaningful communication.
Language is not 100% objective. If it were, there would be no such thing as a language barrier. Many words have subtle connotations and associations that may or may not be intended by the speaker/writer and may or may not be interpreted as intended by the listener/reader. My brother and I once got into a huge, vicious argument all because he had misinterpreted my use of the word “artist” in a conversation. I hadn’t used the word inaccurately, however, his interpretation was equally valid. We were simply coming from different points of view, and it was a simple misunderstanding.
If atheists can use the term “spirituality” among themselves and understand each other, then the term has meaning in that context, and there is nothing irrational about its use. I might even suggest that some of those who oppose the use of the term “spiritual” regardless of context do so because they are emotionally, not rationally biased against the term.
| Yes you do, or you would not defend the essential immunity of something as non-evidential as "spirituality" from the skeptical perusal of critical thinking. The fact that anyone can indulge in your kind of rationalization, suggests that any CT definition of Spirituality as bunk is invalid, because Spirituality is magically shielded in some way from skeptical inquiry. |
No, I don’t. You fail to understand the importance of context. You also obviously don’t understand the way in which I use the term “spiritual”, and instead of acknowledging that failure of communication happening between us, you are just making a false assumption about how I am using the term and the using that false assumption against me. Same thing my brother did with the term “artist” when we had that argument. Even after I explained to my brother how I had meant the term “artist” and why I used that term, for a while he insisted that I had meant something derogatory, even if I didn’t consciously realize it. You, too, seem to be implying that I mean to make some irrational claim about reality with my use of the term “spiritual”. I do not.
If you don’t know what I mean, just say that.
| It also seems that he enjoys fooling himself and believing nonsense from time to time. As do you. And I. |
Sure, but that’s not what I’m talking about when I say that certain stories, terms, characters, might resonate with someone. The metaphorical language in a poem might resonate with one person and not another. But neither person is going to interpret a poetic metaphor literally. Again you fail to understand what I’m saying, but you think you do.
| Why is it necessary for those that present themselves as Skeptics to dissemble into a tepid posture of "compromise"? |
Way to miss the point.
| All you are saying is that a person can think rationally part of the time, but also can choose to think irrationally or childishly part of the time. |
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Thoughts and beliefs are one thing. Actions are another. And emotions, another. A person can engage in a ritualistic act for the purpose of emotional satisfaction while at the same time maintaining a rational point of view.
For example, a friend of mine who is an agnostic skeptic now told me about something she did a few years ago. She’d had a string of extremely bad luck and was in a low place in life, even contemplating suicide. And it was the first time she was alone on her birthday. She was walking through the city and just happened to approach a Catholic church deep in Italian south-Philly that was having service. The doors were wide open and the music within blared. She had been raised Catholic Italian in NYC, so the sound and visuals struck a chord connected with childhood memory. Spontaneously, we went inside. It was toward the end of mass, and the people were taking communion. She fell into line and took communion with everyone else, then stayed until the end of mass, the went home. At no point did she believe she was eating the literal body and blood of Jesus Christ. At no point did she believe Jesus was Messiah or that the Catholic Church was God’s church. The ritual in that instance had nothing to do with Catholic religious beliefs. The ritual was entirely about her connecting to a time in her life when she had felt innocent and protected and full of potential, in contrast to now feeling cynical, helpless, and beat-down. When she told me this, at first I was a little shocked because being raised Catholic myself, I would never take communion; I was raised to think it was a big deal and one should only receive it if one really does believe it is the body of Christ. But then I realized, if it isn’t the body of Christ, who cares if someone secretly takes communion in doubt for personal and not religious reasons? PZ got a hold of a communion wafer and put it in the trash with a nail through it to make a point. Why can’t my friend get a hold of communion wafer for the purpose of revisiting childhood memories that get her through a difficult day?
How can taking action for emotional benefits diminish one’s skeptical mindset? How can it take away from one’s critical thinking abilities? It is only when we allow our emotional attachment to irrational claims to take precedent that we are diminished as critical thinkers.
I have some severe reservations about the efficacy of CT as a panacea for exploring the mysteries of the Universe, and of demanding nearly incontrovertible evidence for opinion that is autodefined as "statement of fact".
It may well be that true skepticism is one of those many-splendored things that are not subject to easy definition.
I suspect, as one far wiser than I decided long ago, that There Is No True Skeptic. |
If I’m understanding you right, I think I agree with you here.
Kil wrote: | While I am an atheist, I enjoy taking part in such things as Passover, and Hanukkah. There is ritual envolved in both of those activities. The rituals are fun and the food is good. And while strictly speaking, the rituals themselves are there to celebrate things that probably never happened, and so believing the story behind the ritual is irrational, taking part in the ritual because it's fun isnot irrational with fun, family and good food as the motive. Unless you think having fun and eating good food with my family is irrational. And if that's the case, than taking part in those traditions that involve some fun religious ritual is an area that I'm happily and irrationally willing to indulge in. |
Over the last few years when the holiday season comes around I’ve attempted to come up with all kind of reasons why it is okay for me as an atheist to celebrate secular “Christmas” (or “x-mas” or “Krismas” as some call it.) The last year I finally got over any insecurities I had about it and just did all the ritualistic things about it that I enjoy (putting up a decorated tree, sending out cards, exchanging gifts, making certain foods, listening to certain music) without any feelings of guilt or insecurity. I just didn’t care about the various justifications and arguments this way and that anymore. I’m secure enough in myself and my own worldview that it’s just not an issue anymore. Sad it took me until my early 30’s to get there, but oh well.
bngbuck wrote: | I don't understand what the quality of the food has to do with the ritual… |
I’m making a fucking goose, along with a whole elaborate menu of particular side dishes and desserts for me and my family on December 25th for no reason other than it is a cultural and family tradition which in our case originates with the religious holiday of Christmas. And you know what? It is more special because it’s for “Christmas”. I don’t believe in any of the Christian mythology even in the slightest, but there is something (cultural and emotional) that makes it special because it is for Christmas (same is true for Thaksgiving, and it doesn’t have shit to do with pilgrims and Indians), and it is for the satisfaction of that subjective association that I am motivated to do it year after year. (To be fair, some people do holiday crap out of a feeling of obligation and don’t actually enjoy it, and they should just give it up ‘cause that’s a waste of energy.) If that ain’t ritual, I don’t know what is.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 11/21/2011 05:01:34 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2011 : 00:52:06 [Permalink]
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Chefcrsh.....
| Seriously? You seriously contend that contemplation(aka prayer)/meditation are not deep religious rituals and present in every known religious school? Hell about the only ritual practice of some buddhist schools and of contemplative Christian monks is meditation |
Yes, Seriously, until you provide me a link to an English word authority that defines ritual (noun) as contemplation or meditation. | A hint for you, they match the following exactly. |
No, they do not. A few of the definitions provided put ritual in a similar context with meditative or contemplative (religious sense) None equate in definition ritual with contemplation or meditation. The quote "with the aid of chanting" lends a bit of credence to your own personal carefully constructed definition of "ritual"
Unfortunately, it does not match with authoritative definition from either dictionaries or encyclopaedias.| A "hint" for you, they match the following exactly. |
A rejoinder for your hint: they match only in your interpretation of the dictionary text.| The working word provided was specifically spiritualism, and because of the ism it has a very different (though it may seem subtle) common use definition. I suspect bngbuck knew what word he wanted for his purpose and also think perhaps he hoped it would get distorted, allowing equivocation through others participation in the topic. |
What does your fertile imagination tell you regarding why I would want to do that? Equivocation? Why that? Just to be a troll, or what are you implying?
The fact of the matter is that I foolishly, stupidly, and ignorantly selected the wrong word in selecting "spiritualism" (although there is a root connection.)
It was wrong and ignorant. I sincerely apologize for this stupid faux pas. I am genuinely ashamed of not correcting it in the obviously faulty proof and editing that I did of my text.| Are you completely ignorant.....? |
Of course not, and neither are you ignorant in any sense of the word.| ...are you just ignoring them in an attempt to appear obtuse? |
Why would I do that? Chef, you obviously spend a lot of time in the kitchen (so have I - I have built, owned, operated, and worked every station in six different restaurants), so you obviously enjoy the heat. Except for that, I do not understand what personal derogation does to enhance the value of your arguments. It appears immature and petty to me. With a lot of work, obviously, on the part of this site's owners; this overt or subtle name calling has largely disappeared from these pages. I would hope it can stay that way.
I will be the first to admit that there was a time when I reveled in flamethrowing here on SFN. Something about using a lot of four letter words and the catharsis of calling names of people that were geographically far removed from me. Today, in my dotage, that kind of derogation in a debate context just appears silly.
If you really want to continue with a monolog of nitpicking semantic parsing of word definitions, I'll be happy to listen to you try to educate me. But I have engaged in a good deal of this here in the past several years, and it is my conclusion that it is largely non-productive. I neither learn anything, nor does it sharpen my faculties. I indeed regret inadvertently starting it.
Have a happy Thanksgiving, and I sincerely hope you are not cooking. Unfortunately, I am.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2011 : 12:47:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Except for that, I do not understand what personal derogation does to enhance the value of your arguments. It appears immature and petty to me. |
Have a look at yourself in the mirror.
While you're not starting out calling people names, you're insulting enough to solicit them.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2011 : 14:54:18 [Permalink]
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Marfknox.....
| Wow, could you be any more condescending? |
Yes, little girl, a lot more! But I certainly would not under any circumstances say anything like that to you with serious intent. It is a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question.| You do realize you just made an ageist comment, right? |
Not right, I very seriously doubt that I did. There was no intent, and the word "ageist"
clearly does not describe any discrimination implicit in my comment.| Ageism, also called age discrimination is stereotyping of and discrimination against individuals or groups because of their age. It is a set of beliefs, attitudes, norms, and values used to justify age based prejudice, discrimination, and subordination.[1] This may be casual or systematic.[2][3] The term was coined in 1968 by Robert Neil Butler to describe discrimination against seniors, and patterned on sexism and racism.[4] Butler defined ageism as a combination of three connected elements. Among them were prejudicial attitudes towards older people, old age, and the aging process; discriminatory practices against older people; and institutional practices and policies that perpetuate stereotypes about older people |
| My age has nothing to do with this, |
Your age has nothing to do with my alleged ageism, but Marf, do you honestly believe that living, experiencing and learning as effectively and exuberantly as you do - do you believe that by time you reach 70 or 80 in good health and of sound mind that you will not be better informed and educated on damn near everything there is - in both your inner universe, and the impersonal objective outer Universe, than you are now? Have you not learned a great deal since you were a child of four or five learning Catholicism? You said:| I have a special emotionally attachment to my Catholic upbringing, so I occasionally go to church where I sing the songs and chant the prayers with everyone else |
And,| Why do I feel a strong desire to claim the word "spiritual" for atheist use? Also, the context in which we frame our sense of meaning in life can be very important to us as individuals. |
I simply suggested that many more years of learning about your sense of meaning in life may alter it significantly. Perhaps even to the extent that the irrationality, hypocrisy and very real evil that is inherent in Catholicism outweighs your youthful happy memories of singing and chanting utter nonsense.
Age has certainly altered my view of both myself and the world that I live in. I am a startlingly different person with enormously different perspectives today than I was at half my age (42) in the 1960's.| So in your view, being truly rational includes only using words in a strictly literal and conventional sense |
No, nor did I say or imply that. There are certainly contexts in which what you describe is both appropriate and necessary. There are many other contexts of word usage that not only allow, they demand far more latitude in expressing intended meaning. Poetic license certainly legitimately exists and has its place in communication.| It is not irrational to use words in unconventional ways if the goal and intention is more precise and more meaningful communication |
How would you suggest that a reader understand the goal and intention of these words recently used here in an unconventional way?You know you can find way how to terrorize people, that is standard tactics psycho of terror from Balkans , and
probably second world war. Some mad people collected money and sepaloid person that is really using
oful kind of psycho terror on me. You know there are different ways of brutally psycho terrorize people,
some of those methods was used in Yugoslav civil war. They mostly go out over someone relationship
and destroying someone economy and after they use to tell you what they did against you.
It is story about well proven psycho terror used in ethnical cleansing in Bosnia. |
My point is that sometimes when words are used in unconventional ways, the reader/listener cannot possibly comprehend the intent or goal of highly irrational people like Neurologis here.
I feel that from what I have read here of your views, that your thinking pretty well bears out one of my initial statements, namely:| However, an alternative opinion certainly exists - specifically that reality is actually dualistic; there is, at least for some humans, an internal reality and an external reality, and a person can be religious internally while being a critical thinker externally. |
You said:| No, that’s not what I’m saying. Thoughts and beliefs are one thing. Actions are another. And emotions, another. A person can engage in a ritualistic act for the purpose of emotional satisfaction while at the same time maintaining a rational point of view. |
Maintaining a rational point of view about what? - about the performance of the irrational act? That the act is actually seen as rational? | you are just making a false assumption about how I am using the term and the using that false assumption against me. |
Against you? In what way? How is that demonstrated?| A friend of mine told me about something she did a few years ago. She’d had a string of extremely bad luck and was in a low place in life, even contemplating suicide. And it was the first time she was alone on her birthday. She was walking through the city and just happened to approach a Catholic church deep in Italian south-Philly that was having service. The doors were wide open and the music within blared. She had been raised Catholic Italian in NYC, so the sound and visuals struck a chord connected with childhood memory. Spontaneously, we went inside. |
I am confused. Was she telling you about something that happened when she was alone several years ago, or was she telling you about something that the two of you did?
| If you don’t know what I mean, just say that. |
I don't know what you mean. Maybe more separation of the text into paragraphs?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2011 : 15:45:00 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse.....
| Have a look at yourself in the mirror. |
I just did. I am reasonably happy with what I see. Can you say the same?| While you're not starting out calling people names, you're insulting enough to solicit them. |
Well, that's a pleasant and courteous comment, Mikael, or is it merely your adopting Horace's complaint expressing your misanthropy?
Perhaps you would care to stand up tall enough to explain exactly how I have insulted you? |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2011 : 05:10:47 [Permalink]
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bngbuck you foolishly equivocate action with only obvious appearance of physical motion (one imagines you are thinking only whirling dervish have ritual). In so doing you miss the very obvious fact that contemplation/meditation is the very act of the ritual. You then begin to make no-true- Scotsman arguments to defend your ignorance, meanwhile rudely claiming your "interpretation" is clearly not only the correct one but the only one.
You have mentioned (ad nauseam) that you are elderly, so I'll assume that this is the cause of your feeble minded argument (after all they say that with age cometh...if forget) and try my best one more time to spell it out for you.
meaning any single (or combined) custom, procedure, convention,. Meditation is such a custom of many religious groups.
| done or regularly repeated |
Carried out once or recurring.
Even if the precise manner is just clearing ones mind and focusing ones thought. But most meditation and contemplation rituals also include specific methods of posture, sitting, breathing, eye position, often in set locations, depending on sect. These things all add to meditaion meeting this part of the definition.
| so as to satisfy one's sense of fitness |
This is vague but yes the goal of contemplation/meditation is to become fit/readily able to reach the void of self and become one with the divine.
| and often felt to have a symbolic or quasi-symbolic significance. |
This is obvious, the contemplative does not actually physically become one with the divine, it is symbolic of the transcendent state. Further there is much symbolism in the many nuanced steps in meditation from sitting/kneeling to breathing etc.
So there you have it. plain and simple english, though is suspect you are far too invested to see the error of your ways.
To nudge you some links from simple google searches pairing ritual and meditation/contemplation.
Wicca ritual meditation
http://www.smartetips.com/witchcraft/meditation-ritual.html
Kabbala Ritual Meditation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh1D9AgBDxU
Yogic contemplation ritual with some of that whirling dervish you had in mind.
http://www.sacred-movement-ritual.com/
A whole list of buddhist rituals including meditation.
http://www.buddhist-temples.com/buddhism-facts/buddhism-ritual.html
A Jewish meditation ritual.
http://www.ritualwell.org/ritual/meditation-yom-kippur-one-who-cannot-fast
A new age meditation ritual.
http://authenticfortuneteller.com/more-about-joomla/36-prayers-and-meditation/55-the-middle-pillar-ritualmeditation.html
Lastly group meditation ritual.
http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/meditate.html
Ta da. I'm done. |
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Is spiritualism an aspect of reality?
