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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2012 : 16:07:57
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have you ever had an outer body experience? I have. Twice. Once i was laying on the couch waiting for my sister to come over. i must have fallen asleep when i suddenly discovered myself stan ding at the window looking out the curtain. I saw my sister pull up and I turned my head seeing myself sleeping on the couch I turned my head again to out the window my sister at the door.. next thing I knew i was waking on the couch my sister coming in the door. Have you ever fallen asleep where you know and feel your body is asleep but yet your mind is still aware of your surroundings. T.V., spouse, children? Possibliy this is the time to move beyond the body. Remember nothing supernatural nothing paranormal. No medieval witchcraft...Just the mind
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 16:15:13 [Permalink]
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The term is "out-of-body experience."
Sounds like you had what is popularly known as a "dream." Nothing supernatural, paranormal or even out-of-body about that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 21:09:56 [Permalink]
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Now, dreams! Dreams are truly remarkable! Who needs woo-woo nonsense when you have real dreams available to you for a large portion of your life? Just think of what they provide: Drama, comedy, sex(!), mystery, flying around like Superman, sometimes even a clever idea or two. If I didn't have dreams for free most nights, I'd be willing to pay good money for them.
And even us skeptics don't deny that dreams happen. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 07:15:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
have you ever had an outer body experience? I have. Twice. Once i was laying on the couch waiting for my sister to come over. i must have fallen asleep when i suddenly discovered myself stan ding at the window looking out the curtain. I saw my sister pull up and I turned my head seeing myself sleeping on the couch I turned my head again to out the window my sister at the door.. next thing I knew i was waking on the couch my sister coming in the door. Have you ever fallen asleep where you know and feel your body is asleep but yet your mind is still aware of your surroundings. T.V., spouse, children? Possibliy this is the time to move beyond the body. Remember nothing supernatural nothing paranormal. No medieval witchcraft...Just the mind
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The term is "out of body" experience or "astral travel".
The mind is a wonderful thing. It can also trick us into feeling some things that are not there.
I have had outside sounds intrude on dreams and change them and had lucid dreams where I was convinced that I was awake until the unexpected happened.
For instance. In the late 1990's, my alarm clock went off. I then fell back asleep but didn't realize it. In my dream, I arose, showered (even felt the impact and warmth of the water), got dressed, walked outside to the car, and started it when the snake under the front seat bit me and I woke up and had to start all over again.
Yes, I checked under the seat before getting into the car the percieved second time that morning. It was a really vivid dream. I just wanted to make sure. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 07:46:00 [Permalink]
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Sounds like a hypnogogic hallucination to me, nothing too unusual. Not that that matters to Storm, the master of ignoring any and all scienctific explanations and jumping right into the most extreme of conclusions.
EDIT(Spelling) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/01/2012 08:57:13 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 08:55:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
have you ever had an outer body experience?
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Yes. I have had a hand full of very vivid dreams. Looking down and watching me sleep. Even getting the location right when I was not sleeping in my usual place. But really falling asleep and having dreams doesn't seem all that special. I simply expect that some dreams are bound to be more interesting than others. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 11:14:24 [Permalink]
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Storm. If you are honestly interested in OBE's a good place to start would be by reading the formost expert on the subject, Susan Blackmore.
Beyond The Body by Susane Blackmore.
A psychological theory of the out-of-body experience. This one's a postscript to her studies and available for reading online.
Given the advances in neurology what was once somewhat speculative, even though she as able to test her hypothesis, has become even more of an empirical science, by way of neuroscience, which she has noted.
I should also probably mention that she had OBE's which is what drove her to look for answers. She started her work on NDE's and OBE's as a believer in paranormal phenomena. So it wasn't a skeptics bias that changed her mind. It was science that did it.
She ends the postscript this way:
...I could never have predicted which brain areas were involved in OBEs, but otherwise these findings are just what I would have expected: they show how the normally stable model of self in the world can be weakened, giving other viewpoints a chance to take over and seem real.
I find these new researches very exciting. One of the things that depressed me most in my decades of research is the tendency for people (and the media) to divide theories of OBEs and NDEs into two black-and-white types. On the one hand are the “good” (or “spiritual”) theories – OBEs mean the spirit can leave the body, NDEs are a glimpse of life after death. On the other hand are the “bad” (or “boring”, or “reductionist”) theories – OBEs and NDEs don’t exist or are “just hallucinations”, horrible scientists are denying people’s life-changing experiences.
Now, at last, we have research linking OBEs to measurable brain processes, to other experiences, and to research on the mystery of consciousness. We can confidently say that OBEs really do happen, they really do change people’s lives, and they are exciting and interesting to study. But rather than telling us about spirits, souls or astral bodies, they reveal something much more interesting about the illusion of being me. |
So yeah. Science is being done on the causes of OBE's. And so far, the conclusion is it's all in the mind. That's not to say it's not real, in the sense that people don't experience what are described as OBE's. But only to say that our brains create illusions. And those illusions are being mapped.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 14:15:57 [Permalink]
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| I do not not believe in scientific explanations..of course I do ...first and foremost. I am not on here trying to convince you guys of little grey men or demons and ghosties... that's a whole other site... not. No I am definetly rationally looking for explanations to what you all call paranormal superantural.... I have never seen a ghost. Herd, felt phenomenon...I coould not explain...voices...footsteps. I do not beleive you can go into a so called haunted house and call out a ghost ..investigations should be take longer a year or so, with vigourous monitoring...not some ghosthunters screaming in a darkened room..who would not see things...of course like I have said before I have never seen a ghost... no matter how scared or dark the environment was. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 20:46:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
have you ever had an outer body experience? I have. Twice.
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Well, if I take you at your exact word then yes almost all of anyones experience is outer body. We have most of our sensors arrayed to collect outside data. For the internal sensory systems we even have some tricky brain illusions that make things like limb location, pain or fever seem as if the originate from outside. This may be because even if the pain or fever originate internally; relief, if it comes at all will need come from external sources and actions in the external world.
However, if I take Dave's correction and apply it to your post, then, not really. To be exact, you have no evidence that you have had an "out-of-body" experience. The appropriate inquisitive posture in such matters would be for you to admit that it felt as if you had left your body. This is an important distinction.
Let's take that apart a bit shall we? When you say that, what exactly do you think has left? For expedience I'll assume you mean that part of your mental process that we call the conscious self. I slice here because if you mean all of your mental processes then, given that these processes regulate the body, if they were removed, your body would die. We know this. It has been done time and time again, and the medical literature on such injury is abundant and clear. We know with great specificity just how much of the neurological systems can be altered, damaged or removed and what the consequences are. We also have vast fields of data showing just what goes on in these systems...how it all works and works together. You may be surprised to know that the conscious self is a tiny and largely unimportant fraction of the whole system. It appears to be an emergent property from the internal cross talk of neurons. It is not a CPU, but rather a rather shy and fickle (it is often not present) after the fact reflection system.
If we agree that you are specifically speaking of your conscious self, we must first admit that that conscious self is a mere tiny fraction of the "self." But even so there is a similar problem. The conscious self only arises from the same mental (and neuronal) processes that make up the human central nervous system. We know this. We can now switch the conscious on or off with the greatest of ease. We can also enhance or alter it with similar ease. Indeed altering consciousness is older than religion (and perhaps the source of religious thinking). We can even simulate out-of-body experiences. This is all done by physically, electrically and chemically effecting the physical brain and nerve matter. It is not opaque mystical woo woo. It is open, clear medical science.
So back to your experience. If you had actually moved to open the door and greet your sister while you were out-of-body. If your sister saw you out-of-body. You may have a point to make (though it would need stand up to a rich world history of neurological research and data).
It seems far more plausible to me (and if you do not have a neurological disorder so it should to you) that you dreamt seeing your sister and that this may have been in part triggered by her being at and opening the door. After all you knew she was coming you had been waiting for her. Did you expect your sleeping brain to ignore this fact?
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| Edited by - chefcrsh on 02/01/2012 21:51:48 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2012 : 08:25:48 [Permalink]
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We have chalked OBE to dreams.. I tend to disagree.. At least with what i experienced as an outer body..take the dream I had last night. i posted this info on Aliens and last night I had a dream that an Alien crashed he had a baby. I took care of the baby.. strangely it looked like my 4 year olds baby doll At one point I tossed it the room thinking it was her doll then i left it on the wooden playset of the neighbors and had to climb the funny ladder. then it was lost and I found it on the floor of my childhood neighbors room. Suddenly my husband came in and said he found the Aliens phone and it said he loves DonnaI guess their not as advanced as we thought...  My point being dreams are usually discombobulated. OBE not so.. especially my experiences with them. Not once in that dream did i see myself outside my body or any other dreams for that matter. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2012 : 08:42:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
We have chalked OBE to dreams.. |
No, we have chalked a particular OBE up as a dream.| My point being dreams are usually discombobulated. |
The key word being "usually."| Not once in that dream did i see myself outside my body or any other dreams for that matter. |
So because you had some dreams which didn't include OBEs, you conclude that no OBEs are dreams? Please explain how that logic works, because it's like saying, "I haven't had any chocolate ice cream with mint in it, so mint chocolate chip ice cream doesn't exist." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2012 : 15:09:57 [Permalink]
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Oh thats right Dave you mean my OBE.I do not have the evidence to say OBE are not just dreams. I have described my most intense experience.. Seeing myself on the couch in the position I fellasleep on same clothes. Watching my sister pull up and come in the house. It was as i was outside myself pulling the curtains back. I was the on looker of the scene. dreams are not so consise..somethings usually thrown into it that just does not make sense.. Alien baby and so on. my OBE was going on... sleeping.. waiting for sister..sister arrives. not I woke up from thr alien dream and my husband and I were laughing about it.
This is the only time I remeber the experience. The other two times I was not cogniscent. I was told by my friend and my husband.
Have any of you had a similiar experience. Dreaming that you see yourself..Not that you are yoursef acting in the dream but actually seeing your self. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2012 : 19:46:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
We have chalked OBE to dreams.. |
I did leave you one other alternative, which is beginning to seem more probable to me too.
So what else is new?
My point being dreams are usually discombobulated. OBE not so
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You have made a testable (and tested) claim. Now you need prove it. I'll give you a head start. People have been collecting dream reports for ages. There is a lot of data. The bad news is that if you look at those reports with an open mind you will see that much of dreaming most of the time is of routine experience. You have to count the misses along with the hits storm. It is statistics 101.
Also, by the way, if leaving your body doesn't qualify as discombobulated then the word has no true meaning, or my alternative hypothesis is strengthened even more. |
| Edited by - chefcrsh on 02/19/2012 07:54:17 |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2012 : 20:21:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
I do not have the evidence to say OBE are not just dreams
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Ohhh but Storm I am afraid given your starting position (the OBE is a real state of existence) you also have no evidence (other than personal preference) as to which of your dreams is the actual OBE. How do you know that while leaving the body you don't also reality shift to a time stream where you do actually care for an alien baby?
Making up random "I believe" claims is the easy part. Once you claim a belief you are making claim to what you think is truth. Thus you have all your work ahead of you to show just why what you believe (as opposed to the many other possibilities both more credible and less credible) is the most likely and reasonable belief. This puts you in an especially difficult bind since you have so hastily disposed of Sir Occam's shaving kit. |
| Edited by - chefcrsh on 02/19/2012 07:55:37 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2012 : 12:17:48 [Permalink]
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| How about I say.. I propose that my experience was more a than a dream.. given the state of how I saw my body.. my movement.. perhaphs consciousness can move outside the body. Now I am not talking supernatural mumbo jumbo. My question still though is have any of you actually seen your body laying in the same way in which you were sleeping. Not you acting your dream but observing yourself? In my dreams I am myself looking out my eyes. Not looking upon myself. I have to say I have had three experiences The one I described I was congnizant of my observation. The other two was observed by two other people. I have tried to recreate, meditate on doing it but I get to a certain point... a complete heaviness of the body but so conscious in my brain I get frightened. Frightened I would not return. Sounds corny but true. Sometmes when I fall asleep I feel that way that heaviness and I think it is going to happen and I wake myself up. Its especially so when I am very tired say from work or kids. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2012 : 16:26:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
My question still though is have any of you actually seen your body laying in the same way in which you were sleeping. Not you acting your dream but observing yourself? In my dreams I am myself looking out my eyes. Not looking upon myself.
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I don't understand what is being said here. It's a bit confused. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Outer Body Experience
