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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  18:34:32  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple of nights ago on chat I was talking abou aliens and my theory that they came to Earth and gave us knowledge of certain things. We got a big kick out of it when i said they probably travel through worm holes. Kil and the others said this would mean they are more advanced. I disagreed. How do we define advancment only through technology.. What about music art?
although they are expressions are they not also advancements? What if aliens could not compose Vivaldi or handels Messsiah or Jesus Christ Superstar. Do they know how to build bridges and skyscrapers? Perhaps they visited us because they blew up their planet? Would that be advancement? so are aliens more advanced or maybe just different

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  19:32:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm

A couple of nights ago on chat I was talking abou aliens and my theory that they came to Earth and gave us knowledge of certain things. We got a big kick out of it when i said they probably travel through worm holes. Kil and the others said this would mean they are more advanced. I disagreed. How do we define advancment only through technology.. What about music art?
although they are expressions are they not also advancements? What if aliens could not compose Vivaldi or handels Messsiah or Jesus Christ Superstar. Do they know how to build bridges and skyscrapers? Perhaps they visited us because they blew up their planet? Would that be advancement? so are aliens more advanced or maybe just different
In order to get here they would be at the very least scientifically and technologically way more advanced than we are. See... Here's the deal. We can't do that. And we can't even think up how to do that yet.

Watch and enjoy this video:

Dr. Neil DeGrasse - A fascinatingly disturbing thought

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  20:50:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to agree [after a limited fashion] with Storm on this. Advanced is a value judgement and an opinion. Even stating that they must be scientifically more advanced does not necessarily hold water. Since we are talking about ET in an infinite universe, we are talking about infinite possibility and complete science fiction (from our POV) and all that entails. The ET could have biologically evolved to tunnel through a worm hole, but have no sciences at all. Or the ET could have developed incredible travel technology but not developed medical technology or philosophy or art or cookery. When we are dreaming up things we can dream anything we want.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  08:32:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm

A couple of nights ago on chat I was talking abou aliens and my theory that they came to Earth and gave us knowledge of certain things.
Most of these sorts of arguments are simply disguised racism. They boil down to the idea that some ancient brown people were too stupid to figure out how to build pyramids (for example), so they needed the help of aliens.
We got a big kick out of it when i said they probably travel through worm holes. Kil and the others said this would mean they are more advanced. I disagreed. How do we define advancment only through technology.. What about music art?
although they are expressions are they not also advancements? What if aliens could not compose Vivaldi or handels Messsiah or Jesus Christ Superstar. Do they know how to build bridges and skyscrapers? Perhaps they visited us because they blew up their planet? Would that be advancement? so are aliens more advanced or maybe just different
Clearly, the context was technological advancement, in which case musical and/or artistic advancement would be irrelevant. Anyone who know how to blow up a planet would definitely be more technologically advanced than us. Only if, as chef suggests, the aliens ability for space travel were innate could we say that they're not necessarily more technologically advanced, at least in certain aspects of life.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2012 :  07:06:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Storm

A couple of nights ago on chat I was talking abou aliens and my theory that they came to Earth and gave us knowledge of certain things.
Most of these sorts of arguments are simply disguised racism. They boil down to the idea that some ancient brown people were too stupid to figure out how to build pyramids (for example), so they needed the help of aliens.


The problem is that several programs I have seen on PBS (NOVA, etc) actually looked at what was necessary to build the pyramids. Turns out, the Ancient Egyptians had more than enough technological prowess to accomplish it. The further findings since the programs have bolstered those findings.

The development of the pyramid was gradual and the archetects learned from their mistakes along the way. The representation of Ma'at changed from a single slab to become more complex over time. Ruined pyramids have been found. The step pyramid was where the ancient archetects learned about what slope was most stable.

They were accomplished stone cutters. Their quarries were well planned. Their methods of transportation were sound. Over the decades, the idea of the pyramid builders being unskilled slaves has been overturned in favor of contracted skilled labor and peasantry pressed into temporary service as part of an annual duty to the Pharoah. There was opportunity for advancement on the projects and the opportunity to learn new skills (which then could be taken back to their normal farms and ranches to help them run those persuits better).


We got a big kick out of it when i said they probably travel through worm holes. Kil and the others said this would mean they are more advanced. I disagreed. How do we define advancment only through technology.. What about music art?
although they are expressions are they not also advancements? What if aliens could not compose Vivaldi or handels Messsiah or Jesus Christ Superstar. Do they know how to build bridges and skyscrapers? Perhaps they visited us because they blew up their planet? Would that be advancement? so are aliens more advanced or maybe just different
Clearly, the context was technological advancement, in which case musical and/or artistic advancement would be irrelevant. Anyone who know how to blow up a planet would definitely be more technologically advanced than us. Only if, as chef suggests, the aliens ability for space travel were innate could we say that they're not necessarily more technologically advanced, at least in certain aspects of life.


There was an old computer game that I play from time to time called Master of Orion II. It has a technology tree. It is possible for a society to have great advances in weapons and defences but not be able to do interstellar travel.

While the alien races may have some aspects that they are more accomplished at than humans, humans may have more accomplishments than those aliens in other aspects.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2012 :  09:10:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


While the alien races may have some aspects that they are more accomplished at than humans, humans may have more accomplishments than those aliens in other aspects.


Meh - all we will need is a healthy viral load.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2012 :  11:50:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chefcrsh

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


While the alien races may have some aspects that they are more accomplished at than humans, humans may have more accomplishments than those aliens in other aspects.


Meh - all we will need is a healthy viral load.


Right.

It's all fun and games until a curved saucer with an articulated periscope feature crashes into a building because the pilot became incapacitated by the flu.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2012 :  18:55:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Watching the original War of the Worlds..I must confess the remake with Tom cruise sucked...Why did they have to change things...especially with such bullshit. Anyway in the ol one it is at the part where the girls Uncle who is a priest is going out to try to talk with them. He says they are living beings...she says, no Dr. Foster says their not human their advanced. Not two seconds later the aliens..wait..oh man..annihilate him. I guess that proves your exisistence of any Diety. Advancement? Control? Perhaps we just project what we would do. Or at least what we will do eventually.
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2012 :  19:31:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm

Watching the original War of the Worlds..I must confess the remake with Tom cruise sucked...Why did they have to change things...especially with such bullshit. Anyway in the ol one it is at the part where the girls Uncle who is a priest is going out to try to talk with them. He says they are living beings...she says, no Dr. Foster says their not human their advanced. Not two seconds later the aliens..wait..oh man..annihilate him. I guess that proves your exisistence of any Diety. Advancement? Control? Perhaps we just project what we would do. Or at least what we will do eventually.

You do know the movie is not a documentary, right?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2012 :  19:33:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Tom Cruise version is much closer to the original 1898 H.G. Wells novella than the 1953 movie, just updated a century or so.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2012 :  09:20:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Storm. Most Americans believe Alien Life is possible. http://www.space.com/1150-americans-alien-life-study-shows.html

Should they be more advanced. Do you really need to ask a skeptic that? Based on their IQ the answer should be Yes, but they will say No, because...............no one has seen a smart Alien yet. But we all have seen plenty of dumb skeptics.

I say go with the Yes.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2012 :  10:09:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Storm. Most Americans believe Alien Life is possible. http://www.space.com/1150-americans-alien-life-study-shows.html

Should they be more advanced. Do you really need to ask a skeptic that? Based on their IQ the answer should be Yes, but they will say No, because...............no one has seen a smart Alien yet. But we all have seen plenty of dumb skeptics.

I say go with the Yes.


Let me guess. You're a teenager, right?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2012 :  21:02:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Storm. Most Americans believe Alien Life is possible. http://www.space.com/1150-americans-alien-life-study-shows.html

Should they be more advanced. Do you really need to ask a skeptic that? Based on their IQ the answer should be Yes, but they will say No, because...............no one has seen a smart Alien yet. But we all have seen plenty of dumb skeptics.

I say go with the Yes.




Boy are you wrong..... again..... not that you'll admit it or nothin.

The question is why would aliens visit this little speck circling a second rate star in a remote part of the galaxy. And we are a primitive society to boot. (Primitive as related to a space-faring, super luminal traveling society.)

Why assume that a primitive society must have alien help when ample evidence exists that the skills required to build the wonders they did developed (or evolved) over time.

My diety blessed me with a mind and expects me to use it.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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