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sailingsoul
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2830 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  18:42:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

The two trends I see now are that we are allowing less competent owners to carry and extending the range over which the less competent can excercise poor judgement.

Bolding mine, SS.

Wooha! You see "two trends" ???? We got this case and what others that shows a "trend"???
How many permit carriers are making the news defending themselves (only a nut would defend a stranger who chooses not to have a permit)? I see no trend, please support why you think that so I can see it too.

Also, I don't see it that the standards are being lowered or weakened to allow "less competent" to be permitted. I don't see that as accurate. There are requirements that must be fulfilled in order to get a Fl. Concealed Carry Weapon Permit. In Florida, prior to the mid 80's Florida State allowed the individual counties to issue CW permits. They was arbitrarily and inconsistently issued state wide, to say the least. There were counties, at the time, that are very rural issuing may times more permits annually than other more highly populated counties like Miami Dade (Pop. 2.5 million) Broward (Pop. 1.7 million) where it was VERY difficult to get one proportionally. At the time they were rarely being issued in the more highly populated and dangerous areas of the state. Another reason they went with a state issued permit system was when a county issued a permit it was only covered the county it was issued by. A simple trip to the store to a neighboring county would have you violating the law. If you brought your gun into a county where you were not permitted for you would be carrying an illegal concealed weapon.

As far as I know the requirements are the same as they have always been since the state law was enacted, mid 80's. "Lesser competent" people are not being allowed now where they were prevented before, the standards/ are still the same.

It is wrong that this one case, about a bad shooting and wrong application of the "stand your ground law" (enacted later) that anti gun propaganda or emotions like these are being thrown about. I filed an application for a permit in the first week or two of the law change and aqpplied for a CW permit along with two other friends. I kept current for the next 8 years before I let it expire. At the time there was all sorts of fear mongering in the press that Florida was going to become over run with gun toting vigilantes killing people left and right. Well! it didn't happen. It was over a year before the first shooting occurred by a state permit carrier. I knew the man personally and it was a very terrifying incident involving a taxi driver and a career criminal (cuban marielito w/tatoos) who tried to rob his cabbie so he could have some extra cash for his planned night on the town. He had finished dinner in a linen suit and was going dancing. I know the case well. The driver had started his (friday) night shift a few hours before and had almost no money that early in his shift (11 pm). The robber was not taking no for an answer. After giving up his wallet and pocket cash on a dark side street, he was ordered out of the cab. He choose to stand his ground and chose not to question if he was going to be shot in the back or whatever. He would have been very happy to give up his money, have the robber exit the cab and take off. He spent several months very worried that he could be charged. That was before the "stand your ground" laws were enacted in Fl. (2005) and for this very reason. People threatened by deadly force should expect to have the right to defend themselves, in their home or outside, when threatened.

It has been about 24 years since Florida went to the state wide permits and there has not been the predicted wave of permit carrying shoots wildly predicted in the anti-gun press articles. People will and do make mistakes, as we see here and others should never be made more vulnerable because of those mistakes or crimes committed by those other people. That is wrong. Law abiding citizens have and should be allowed to defend themselves properly within the law.

Florida has issued 2,031,106 licenses since adopting its law in 1987, and had 843,463 licensed permit holders as of July 31, 2011. Link

With a population of 19,057,542 on July 1, 2011. That comes to about one in twenty. With that many it's a wonder there is not more of this except for, I believe, well over 99% do so correctly and AVOID confrontation while they carry. Exactly because there are so few reported cases like this, one can assume how seriously those that carry treat their right and the proper use of it.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 03/28/2012 18:58:50
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  20:06:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by moakley

The two trends I see now are that we are allowing less competent owners to carry and extending the range over which the less competent can excercise poor judgement.

Bolding mine, SS.

Wooha! You see "two trends" ???? We got this case and what others that shows a "trend"???
If I was talking about this case you might have a point. Had you consider my other post to which this one is related you would have seen one trend away from most states being no issue of permits to 45 states with may issue and shall issue and 4 states with no restrictions on concealed carry. In addition 4 more states are considering going to no restrictions. What level of competency do you need in a state with no restrictions on concealed carry? Second trend, over the last 15 years more states are passing "Stand your groud laws", extending the castle doctrine to where ever a threat is perceived. A ready defense for poor judgement.

One comment from the second link above was "In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.". This doesn't surprise me, but the articles in the footnotes for this comment was not what I thought necessary to support the comment.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  00:26:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
But the important point made elsewhere is that regardless of who was the aggressor in the final moments, if Zimmerman had stopped when told to, Trayvon would still be alive, Zimmerman wouldn't be afraid for his own life


An important point as to whether and how much blame to attribute to Zimmerman, but I don't know that it is an important point from a legal standpoint.

and an elderly couple wouldn't be receiving death threats (but would Spike Lee still be a moronic thug?).


Seriously, what the hell was he thinking? Even with the right address, it's incredibly irresponsible.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
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"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  05:52:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

An important point as to whether and how much blame to attribute to Zimmerman, but I don't know that it is an important point from a legal standpoint.
If there's a homicide trial, the judge will handle the matters of law. The jury handles the matters of guilt. If the judge allows evidence that the police instructed Zimmerman not to follow Martin, you can damned well bet that's just the kind of detail likely to strongly influence any unprejudiced jury.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/29/2012 05:53:56
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  05:53:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by moakley

The two trends I see now are that we are allowing less competent owners to carry and extending the range over which the less competent can excercise poor judgement.

Bolding mine, SS.

Wooha! You see "two trends" ???? We got this case and what others that shows a "trend"???
If I was talking about this case you might have a point. Had you consider my other post to which this one is related you would have seen one trend away from most states being no issue of permits to 45 states with may issue and shall issue and 4 states with no restrictions on concealed carry. In addition 4 more states are considering going to no restrictions. What level of competency do you need in a state with no restrictions on concealed carry? Second trend, over the last 15 years more states are passing "Stand your groud laws", extending the castle doctrine to where ever a threat is perceived. A ready defense for poor judgement.

One comment from the second link above was "In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.". This doesn't surprise me, but the articles in the footnotes for this comment was not what I thought necessary to support the comment.


CCW just allows you to carry the weapon concealed. You don't need additional training for that.

The competency is the same as it ever was. You have to be free of felonies (in some cases, free from certian misdemeanors) and not be bug lovin crazy. You have to pass a background check (Insta-check) to get a FOID.

The competency is covered under the original issue of the weapon.

Self defense has tripled....... from what? 1 claim per year to 3 claims per year is a tripling. Then there is the consideration of victim vs dead goblin. Is the victim of the assault frail, elderly, greatly physically outclassed by the goblin? ("Goblin" here used in the same way that the blogger JayG uses the term.) Is someone being beaten to death by a physically superior person unknown? How do they define unarmed? Do they only count firearms and not knives, crowbars, pointed sticks, bludgeons, etc?

Do you have a source which breaks this down by a case by case basis or even provide raw numbers?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/29/2012 05:56:02
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  09:14:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

An important point as to whether and how much blame to attribute to Zimmerman, but I don't know that it is an important point from a legal standpoint.
If a judge and jury find what Zimmerman did was completely legal, placing blame is where the civil lawsuit will go (see OJ Simpson, for example).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  09:33:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read an article recently about Zimmerman's saying he was attacked by Martin. the police report said he had a bloody nose and bruising. However, the video of Zimmerman did not show any injury. the other fact is that Martin was 140 lbs and Zimmerman is 250 lbs. I am guessing it would be really hard for Martin to knock down Zimmerman and keep him down. It looks like the police in their report.

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  10:04:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

CCW just allows you to carry the weapon concealed. You don't need additional training for that.
From the Wikipedia article moakley linked to, it seems that some states do require additional training or certification before issuing a permit. And some states have requirments on the permits, like Florida's requirement that a CCW permit holder not "brandish their weapon as a deterrent." From the MJ article:
The ABC report also recounted a new detail about Zimmerman's account of that night, concerning Zimmerman's gun: "Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun," the report states. "In a struggle for Zimmerman's gun, the watchman shot the teenager, Zimmerman told police."

This account raises the question: How did Trayvon Martin know Zimmerman was armed with a handgun? Under Florida law, Zimmerman was licensed only to carry it concealed; the state's permit guidelines also instruct licensees not to brandish their weapons as a deterrent. But in claiming that there was a struggle for his gun, Zimmerman's account suggests he had the weapon out, or visible on his person.
Now, I don't see the brandishment prohibition in the actual law, and the state's summary of the law only says that using a handgun as "leverage" in an argument will get you three years in prison, concealed or not (loaded or not). So I'm not sure where they're getting this...

...found it: open carry is prohibited in Florida.

A later update to the MJ article says that a cop reported retrieving Zimmerman's gun from an inside-the-waistband holster.

Another interesting tidbit in Florida law:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification [of the use of deadly force] described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:...

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
So in Florida, someone who starts a fistfight can't shoot the other person for answering punch with punch, but can shoot if his victim pulls a knife and backs him into a corner. Good grief, this stuff is complex.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  10:31:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by moakley

One comment from the second link above was "In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.". This doesn't surprise me, but the articles in the footnotes for this comment was not what I thought necessary to support the comment.


Self defense has tripled....... from what?
This is likely the source for the self defense has tripled claim. As stated in the article their source is Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Some stats presented in the article.
For the first half of this decade, the state counted an average of 34 justifiable homicides a year, as few as 31 and as many as 43.

That continued in 2006, the law's first full year.

But the next three years brought these numbers:

2007: 102.

2008: 93.

2009: 105.

The first six months of 2010: 44.



Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Is the victim of the assault frail, elderly, greatly physically outclassed by the goblin? ("Goblin" here used in the same way that the blogger JayG uses the term.) Is someone being beaten to death by a physically superior person unknown? How do they define unarmed? Do they only count firearms and not knives, crowbars, pointed sticks, bludgeons, etc?

Do you have a source which breaks this down by a case by case basis or even provide raw numbers?
You've have set the bar much higher than I have time for now.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  11:48:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

If I was talking about this case you might have a point. Had you consider my other post to which this one is related you would have seen one trend away from most states being no issue of permits to 45 states with may issue and shall issue and 4 states with no restrictions on concealed carry. In addition 4 more states are considering going to no restrictions. What level of competency do you need in a state with no restrictions on concealed carry? Second trend, over the last 15 years more states are passing "Stand your groud laws", extending the castle doctrine to where ever a threat is perceived. A ready defense for poor judgement.

One comment from the second link above was "In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.". This doesn't surprise me, but the articles in the footnotes for this comment was not what I thought necessary to support the comment.



Moakleyafter rereading your previous posts I believe I understand you position. Based on my personal experiences I think it is a mistake and an precursor to an inevitable tragedy/s for all involved to allow anyone to carry a handgun without adequate instruction on the dangers entailed with the proper handling of a gun or other weapons of defense. The police are trained on firearms who are working in unrestricted states for good cause and so should all others who choose to carry anywhere. I see and understand the dangers that I and others could have been exposed to if Florida had not enacted the required training they did to be issued a CCW permit. Your overall concerns are valid to me also when it comes to states changing their laws to allow unrestricted CCW rights without requiring proper training toward the laws dictating usage and safety.
I shudder to think of the potential risks for both myself and anyone else could have be exposed to it if I was allowed to carry a gun without the proper training required for me to get licensed. That said I would think if there is a problem with allowing untrained citizens to CCW's we would see the incidences of bad shootings and accidents in those state grow larger as they become more numerous and as time passes.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  12:17:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by moakley

One comment from the second link above was "In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling, with all but one of those killed unarmed.". This doesn't surprise me, but the articles in the footnotes for this comment was not what I thought necessary to support the comment.


Self defense has tripled....... from what?
This is likely the source for the self defense has tripled claim. As stated in the article their source is Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Some stats presented in the article.
For the first half of this decade, the state counted an average of 34 justifiable homicides a year, as few as 31 and as many as 43.

That continued in 2006, the law's first full year.

But the next three years brought these numbers:

2007: 102.

2008: 93.

2009: 105.

The first six months of 2010: 44.



Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Is the victim of the assault frail, elderly, greatly physically outclassed by the goblin? ("Goblin" here used in the same way that the blogger JayG uses the term.) Is someone being beaten to death by a physically superior person unknown? How do they define unarmed? Do they only count firearms and not knives, crowbars, pointed sticks, bludgeons, etc?

Do you have a source which breaks this down by a case by case basis or even provide raw numbers?
You've have set the bar much higher than I have time for now.


Of the three cases cited. Only one is a questionable shoot.

A younger, stronger man lunged at another man because that person requested that the rules be obeyed. - Good shoot. Don't provoke a physical altercation.

Decorated ex-serviceman goes to intimidate a neighbor of his mother's with a baseball bat. - Good shoot. Ex-serviceman should not bring a weapon (baseball bat) to resolve a neighbor issue.

Drunk guy on porch. - questionable shoot.

Brady campaign wants an unarmed public cowering in fear inside their homes hoping and praying that violent people will not kill them while waiting for the police to arrive. The self defense killings were on an uptick. So the contention of tripling is questionable at best.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  14:26:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Of the three cases cited. Only one is a questionable shoot.

A younger, stronger man lunged at another man because that person requested that the rules be obeyed. - Good shoot. Don't provoke a physical altercation.
Really? A "lunge" is a threat of "death or great bodily harm?"
Decorated ex-serviceman goes to intimidate a neighbor of his mother's with a baseball bat. - Good shoot. Ex-serviceman should not bring a weapon (baseball bat) to resolve a neighbor issue.
The guy with the souvenir 14-inch baseball bat wasn't on his neighbor's property, but in his own mother's yard. The neighbor pulled a knife. The neighbor's father fired the gun. There doesn't seem to have even been any sort of confrontation or communication between the parties in the seconds leading up to the killing. Even if the toy bat had really been "a pipe," it's a "good shoot" to just guess that someone nearby is going to hurt you?

If I see a jogger on a park path, can I legally blow him away if I mistake his iPod for one of those credit-card-sized knives and panic because he's coming right for me!!?
Drunk guy on porch. - questionable shoot.
The shooter seemed to think it was a horrible shoot. Why did he even open the door? And if it's okay (and it might be, since you only called it "questionable") to open your door and leave the safety of your home and kill a guy who's made a drunken mistake, can I just shoot through the door if someone rattles the doorknob without me even trying to figure out what's going on?

There were two more cases referenced in the article. Jimmy Hair killed Charles Harper after Harper forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger (and after arguing with the driver). The two grappled, and according to Hair, he tried to beat Harper with his gun when it went off. There was also testimony that Harper was being pulled out of the car by another person when he was shot.

I'm going to say "bad shoot" because the shooting was unintentional and it's dumb to use your handgun as a cudgel. Had Hair simply said that he purposefully shot the guy, I would have considered it a good shoot. Either way, after two years in jail waiting trial on first-degree murder, Hair was released because "Stand Your Ground" finds accidents and retreating to be irrelevancies.

The other case you missed was that of David Heckman:
At approximately 10:30 p.m. on November 6, 2005, Carroll, who was thirty-six years old, drove to the home where sixty-one-year-old Heckman lived with Carroll's former girlfriend and Carroll's two children. Carroll dropped off one of the children's bicycles and asked to see his son. Heckman told Carroll it was too late to see his son, and Carroll got upset and threatened to break Heckman's jaw. Carroll began walking back to his truck, which he had parked on the street in front of Heckman's house and in which Carroll's fiancee, her mother, and their young baby waited.

Heckman told Carroll he was going to call 9-1-1 and followed Carroll to his truck so he could get Carroll's license plate number. Carroll then threatened to "do more than just break" Heckman's jaw. Heckman's call to the 9-1-1 operator did not go through, and he reentered the front door of his home and locked the door behind him. Heckman did not call 9-1-1 from his home but instead went into the home's attached garage and opened the garage door facing the driveway.

Carroll had entered his truck and driven it in front of Heckman's driveway. Heckman believed that Carroll was "baiting" [*3] him. Heckman took the bait, retrieved a brass door handle, and skipped it down the driveway toward Carroll's truck. When the door handle hit Carroll's truck, Carroll jumped out of the truck and ran toward Heckman.

Heckman ran back into his house through the door attached to the garage and locked the door behind him. Carroll then picked up a stick or pole in the garage and began vandalizing Heckman's vehicle, which was parked therein. Heckman heard the noise inside his garage and retrieved his loaded .38 caliber revolver from his bedroom. As Heckman approached the inside door to the garage, he noticed that the noise coming from the garage had stopped. Heckman opened the door and walked slowly toward the front of the garage with the pistol pointed down by his side.

Carroll had left the garage and was retreating to his truck for the second time. When Carroll heard Heckman, Carroll turned around, put his hands on his hips and said, "What is your problem?" Carroll was fifteen feet away from Heckman. Heckman responded by asking Carroll to leave. According to one of Heckman's statements, Carroll made a "furtive movement" towards Heckman by leaning in Heckman's direction. Heckman then fired [*4] his revolver twice, hitting Carroll once in the thigh.
Bad shoot.
Brady campaign wants an unarmed public cowering in fear inside their homes hoping and praying that violent people will not kill them while waiting for the police to arrive.
What a bunch of crap. Unless someone is trying to bust down a door or smash a window to get in, there's no reason leave the safety of one's home to shoot someone who hasn't yet intruded. Waiting safely for the cops to arrive is a good first choice. Especially when people intent on hurting you are going to burst in, sneak in, convince you to let them in or convince you to come out.
The self defense killings were on an uptick. So the contention of tripling is questionable at best.
The data say otherwise. The average number of cases between 2000 and 2006 was 34, and there was no "uptick" trend at all. But in 2007, the number of cases was 299% higher than that average. In 2008, it was 272% higher, and in 2009 it was 308% higher. Looks like a tripling to me.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  15:51:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Of the three cases cited. Only one is a questionable shoot.

A younger, stronger man lunged at another man because that person requested that the rules be obeyed. - Good shoot. Don't provoke a physical altercation.
Really? A "lunge" is a threat of "death or great bodily harm?"


So I gotta wait until he hits me and starts beating me to death before I defend myself? He's already shown an irrational reaction.


Decorated ex-serviceman goes to intimidate a neighbor of his mother's with a baseball bat. - Good shoot. Ex-serviceman should not bring a weapon (baseball bat) to resolve a neighbor issue.
The guy with the souvenir 14-inch baseball bat wasn't on his neighbor's property, but in his own mother's yard. The neighbor pulled a knife. The neighbor's father fired the gun. There doesn't seem to have even been any sort of confrontation or communication between the parties in the seconds leading up to the killing. Even if the toy bat had really been "a pipe," it's a "good shoot" to just guess that someone nearby is going to hurt you?


History of confrontation and the neighbor felt threatened enough to skin a blade. Something left out by the Bradys? Now I have to wait for someone to start beating my kid before I defend him?


If I see a jogger on a park path, can I legally blow him away if I mistake his iPod for one of those credit-card-sized knives and panic because he's coming right for me!!?


He say anything threatening to me to make me believe I'm about to be attacked? People out here have been shot by police for holding a padlock or cell phone. And these are the alledged "trained" people who should be the only ones with guns according to the Bradys.

Drunk guy on porch. - questionable shoot.
The shooter seemed to think it was a horrible shoot. Why did he even open the door? And if it's okay (and it might be, since you only called it "questionable") to open your door and leave the safety of your home and kill a guy who's made a drunken mistake, can I just shoot through the door if someone rattles the doorknob without me even trying to figure out what's going on?

There were two more cases referenced in the article. Jimmy Hair killed Charles Harper after Harper forced his way into a car in which Hair was a passenger (and after arguing with the driver). The two grappled, and according to Hair, he tried to beat Harper with his gun when it went off. There was also testimony that Harper was being pulled out of the car by another person when he was shot.

I'm going to say "bad shoot" because the shooting was unintentional and it's dumb to use your handgun as a cudgel. Had Hair simply said that he purposefully shot the guy, I would have considered it a good shoot. Either way, after two years in jail waiting trial on first-degree murder, Hair was released because "Stand Your Ground" finds accidents and retreating to be irrelevancies.

The other case you missed was that of David Heckman:
At approximately 10:30 p.m. on November 6, 2005, Carroll, who was thirty-six years old, drove to the home where sixty-one-year-old Heckman lived with Carroll's former girlfriend and Carroll's two children. Carroll dropped off one of the children's bicycles and asked to see his son. Heckman told Carroll it was too late to see his son, and Carroll got upset and threatened to break Heckman's jaw. Carroll began walking back to his truck, which he had parked on the street in front of Heckman's house and in which Carroll's fiancee, her mother, and their young baby waited.

Heckman told Carroll he was going to call 9-1-1 and followed Carroll to his truck so he could get Carroll's license plate number. Carroll then threatened to "do more than just break" Heckman's jaw. Heckman's call to the 9-1-1 operator did not go through, and he reentered the front door of his home and locked the door behind him. Heckman did not call 9-1-1 from his home but instead went into the home's attached garage and opened the garage door facing the driveway.

Carroll had entered his truck and driven it in front of Heckman's driveway. Heckman believed that Carroll was "baiting" [*3] him. Heckman took the bait, retrieved a brass door handle, and skipped it down the driveway toward Carroll's truck. When the door handle hit Carroll's truck, Carroll jumped out of the truck and ran toward Heckman.

Heckman ran back into his house through the door attached to the garage and locked the door behind him. Carroll then picked up a stick or pole in the garage and began vandalizing Heckman's vehicle, which was parked therein. Heckman heard the noise inside his garage and retrieved his loaded .38 caliber revolver from his bedroom. As Heckman approached the inside door to the garage, he noticed that the noise coming from the garage had stopped. Heckman opened the door and walked slowly toward the front of the garage with the pistol pointed down by his side.

Carroll had left the garage and was retreating to his truck for the second time. When Carroll heard Heckman, Carroll turned around, put his hands on his hips and said, "What is your problem?" Carroll was fifteen feet away from Heckman. Heckman responded by asking Carroll to leave. According to one of Heckman's statements, Carroll made a "furtive movement" towards Heckman by leaning in Heckman's direction. Heckman then fired [*4] his revolver twice, hitting Carroll once in the thigh.
Bad shoot.


Really? Why? He couldn't summon the magic crime stoppers. Dead goblin was being violent. No telling if he was going to escalate into the house.


Brady campaign wants an unarmed public cowering in fear inside their homes hoping and praying that violent people will not kill them while waiting for the police to arrive.
What a bunch of crap. Unless someone is trying to bust down a door or smash a window to get in, there's no reason leave the safety of one's home to shoot someone who hasn't yet intruded. Waiting safely for the cops to arrive is a good first choice.


Assuming they show up in time. Homes aren't safe. Bullets go right through them.

Especially when people intent on hurting you are going to burst in, sneak in, convince you to let them in or convince you to come out.
The self defense killings were on an uptick. So the contention of tripling is questionable at best.
The data say otherwise. The average number of cases between 2000 and 2006 was 34, and there was no "uptick" trend at all. But in 2007, the number of cases was 299% higher than that average. In 2008, it was 272% higher, and in 2009 it was 308% higher. Looks like a tripling to me.

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Dave W.
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USA
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Posted - 03/29/2012 :  16:55:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

So I gotta wait until he hits me and starts beating me to death before I defend myself?
So the only way for you to defend yourself is deadly force? How many people get beaten to death by unarmed assaulters on basketball courts, anyway? Is one too high a risk, so that every intentional foul in a game should be answered with gunshots?
He's already shown an irrational reaction.
I've said some irrational things in these forums. I shall endeavor to never meet you, Val, since you might consider my irrationality a justification for killing me. Or maybe if we do meet, I should shoot first since your irrationality defense makes you, in my opinion, a wildly dangerous person.
History of confrontation and the neighbor felt threatened enough to skin a blade. Something left out by the Bradys? Now I have to wait for someone to start beating my kid before I defend him?
So I don't have to wait for you to make a move before I shoot you? Awesome.
If I see a jogger on a park path, can I legally blow him away if I mistake his iPod for one of those credit-card-sized knives and panic because he's coming right for me!!?
He say anything threatening to me to make me believe I'm about to be attacked?
So now I have to wait for someone to say something threatening? Are you claiming that killers always state their intentions before they kill?
People out here have been shot by police for holding a padlock or cell phone. And these are the alledged "trained" people who should be the only ones with guns according to the Bradys.
Oddly, "Stand Your Ground" isn't a positive defense for shooting a cop.
Really? Why? He couldn't summon the magic crime stoppers. Dead goblin was being violent.
Not dead.
No telling if he was going to escalate into the house.
So the shooter decided to escalate and provoke a reaction by going out through the doors he already locked, after the violent guy had already shown a desire to leave. His threats were clearly toothless and the only violence he carried out was against an inanimate object after his own truck had been assaulted on a public street. The shooter had many choices to make, and made many of them badly. The last one - to pull the trigger - he made on the basis of nothing more than a lean. It wasn't even a "lunge."

I'd prefer not to live someplace where if someone loses his balance after an argument - even one which included malicious property damage - it's considered a good justification for his execution.
Assuming they show up in time. Homes aren't safe. Bullets go right through them.
Homes provide more protection than air. So a person should stay inside and shoot through the walls, windows or doors at passing strangers they find threatening, right? It's enough to think you might be merely attacked. No need to wait until you actually are attacked. No need to try to qualify how much of a threat there is. If you feel threatened, then assume that you will be killed if you don't destroy the threat. And it's quite alright to act in ways that ensure the threat becomes larger and more immanent.

If I happen to be sitting in my open front doorway in broad daylight with a loaded handgun in my lap, and 100 feet away a teenager I've never seen before screams for no apparent (to me) reason and then runs in my general direction, I should blow him away and it would be a "good shoot" because I have no need to wait to actually be assaulted, my home is no protection at all, the kid has already displayed irrationality and it doesn't matter if I craft the situation to ensure that I feel threatened.

Those are the lessons I'm getting from you, Val. My right to swing my fist apparently ends at the limits of your eyesight.

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moakley
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USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  17:23:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by DaveW

The other case you missed was that of David Heckman

Really? Why? He couldn't summon the magic crime stoppers. Dead goblin was being violent. No telling if he was going to escalate into the house.
Heckman had an opportunity to redial 9-1-1 when he reentered his home at that time all Carroll was doing was sitting in his truck at the end of his driveway. He had an opportunity to repeat that call many times. De-escalate, take a breath, redial 9-1-1, but instead of relying on space and time for flaring tempers to cool he re-escalated, with a doornob , poor judgement. There is no telling, yeah, that had Heckman stayed in his house repeating his calls to 9-1-1, Carroll may have left or been arrested.


Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by DaveW

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Brady campaign wants an unarmed public cowering in fear inside their homes hoping and praying that violent people will not kill them while waiting for the police to arrive.
What a bunch of crap. Unless someone is trying to bust down a door or smash a window to get in, there's no reason leave the safety of one's home to shoot someone who hasn't yet intruded. Waiting safely for the cops to arrive is a good first choice.


Assuming they show up in time. Homes aren't safe. Bullets go right through them.
Just like "The Gaunlet". Do you have any statistics that show how many failed (I assume failed because I do not see much reason to do so if you were successful.) breakins result in the bad guy just firing into a house. This comment and the Brady comment strikes me as promoting irrational fear to support an agenda.

Originally posted by DaveW

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

The self defense killings were on an uptick. So the contention of tripling is questionable at best.
The data say otherwise. The average number of cases between 2000 and 2006 was 34, and there was no "uptick" trend at all. But in 2007, the number of cases was 299% higher than that average. In 2008, it was 272% higher, and in 2009 it was 308% higher. Looks like a tripling to me.
Yep. The data does show otherwise. So your comment reads more like denial rather than a substantive counter to this data.

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