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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  09:22:32  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/tennessee-science-bill-al_n_1368261.html

Passed by the state senate, this bill basically allows creationism into science classes.

I hope the gov there has the sense to veto it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4780 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  09:25:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't be on it.

A lot of fundies make it into office there.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  10:15:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm a Tennessee resident, and although I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself, the Tennessee State Legislature is a freak show (even by common State Legislature standards). Don't like a little creationism in your science? How about Don't Say Gay, or mudhole stomping, or a little casual Hooters Girl Tea Party Vandalism? Oh, and as for that last one, seems the lovely Ms. Hurley just won't stop doing stupid things.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12672 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  12:53:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/tennessee-science-bill-al_n_1368261.html

Passed by the state senate, this bill basically allows creationism into science classes.

I hope the gov there has the sense to veto it.


I hope so too. He says he's going to consult with the board of education, which is a good sign, considering what the bill is calling for.

Bill Summary


This bill prohibits the state board of education and any public elementary or secondary school governing authority, director of schools, school system administrator, or principal or administrator from prohibiting any teacher in a public school system of this state from helping students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of existing scientific theories covered in the course being taught, such as evolution and global warming. This bill also requires such persons and entities to endeavor to:
(1) Create an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that encourages students to explore scientific questions, learn about scientific evidence, develop critical thinking skills, and respond appropriately and respectfully to differences of opinion about controversial issues; and
(2) Assist teachers to find effective ways to present the science curriculum as it addresses scientific controversies.


I'm not so sure, even if there are creationists on the board, that they will be very keen on the idea that they have no say in the matter.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  14:37:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The whole thing is just douchebaggery to get creationism a way into public school science class.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12672 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2012 :  15:58:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

The whole thing is just douchebaggery to get creationism a way into public school science class.


It will still be unconstitutional. How many times can that ruling be made?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  11:12:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/tennessee-science-bill-al_n_1368261.html

Passed by the state senate, this bill basically allows creationism into science classes.

I hope the gov there has the sense to veto it.


After reading the bill here:

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/SB0893.pdf

How will it allow the teaching of creationism? It specifically says it is only related to scientific information.

This section only protects the teaching of scientific information, and shall not be construed to promote any religious or non-religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs or non-beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or non-religion.


It seems to me the text of the law is saying that discussion will be allowed in the classroom about weaknesses of current scientific theories only and does not allow for teaching alternate non scientific ideas. Teachers will not be allowed to promote any religion or philosophy as an alternative to scienctific theories.

I think the law in uneccessary and unwise but it doesn't allow creationism to be taught as science.


Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  12:45:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Dude

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/tennessee-science-bill-al_n_1368261.html

Passed by the state senate, this bill basically allows creationism into science classes.

I hope the gov there has the sense to veto it.


After reading the bill here:

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/SB0893.pdf

How will it allow the teaching of creationism? It specifically says it is only related to scientific information.

This section only protects the teaching of scientific information, and shall not be construed to promote any religious or non-religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs or non-beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or non-religion.


It seems to me the text of the law is saying that discussion will be allowed in the classroom about weaknesses of current scientific theories only and does not allow for teaching alternate non scientific ideas. Teachers will not be allowed to promote any religion or philosophy as an alternative to scienctific theories.

I think the law in uneccessary and unwise but it doesn't allow creationism to be taught as science.


Well, the Scientific Creationists/IDers claim their teaching is "scientific information," not religion. That's the trick they plan to use to sneak Genesis into Tennessee public school biology classes.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  22:48:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's how science in public education in the USA stacks up. THis is the best, most current map I could find. Note, however, that the Tennessee monkey bill was not considered in this map. Tennessee now certainly rates an "F". (courtesy NCSE):


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  06:53:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Well, the Scientific Creationists/IDers claim their teaching is "scientific information," not religion. That's the trick they plan to use to sneak Genesis into Tennessee public school biology classes.
This is a possibility.

After reading more about the bill and why scientists believe it is a bad idea, I agree that it will only confuse students more and it can be abused to teach faith in the public schools.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
Edited by - Convinced on 04/13/2012 07:17:26
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:14:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Here's how science in public education in the USA stacks up. THis is the best, most current map I could find. Note, however, that the Tennessee monkey bill was not considered in this map. Tennessee now certainly rates an "F". (courtesy NCSE):


After reading the NCSE website, I assume this map is only an indicator of how well climate change and evolution are taught, not the overall science curriculim or test scores in any state. Although I bet there is some corrolation.

I fear Texas is next. You can't teach faith as science.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:28:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Well, the Scientific Creationists/IDers claim their teaching is "scientific information," not religion. That's the trick they plan to use to sneak Genesis into Tennessee public school biology classes.
This is a possibility.

After reading more about the bill and why scientists believe it is a bad idea, I agree that it will only confuse students more and it can be abused to teach faith in the public schools.
Here's a Wired article on the Tennessee Monkey Law. From that article:
. . .

An alternate approach has appeared in a number of bills (again, all with nearly identical language) that would protect teachers who present the “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories, although the bills single out evolution, climate change, and a couple of topics that aren’t even theories. Again, the goal seems to be to use neutral language that will allow teachers to reiterate many of the spurious arguments against the widely accepted scientific understandings. Tennessee’s House and Senate had passed a bill that took precisely this approach.

. . .

Although a detailed discussion of open issues within all scientific theories might make some pedagogic sense, the bill will undoubtedly function as its designers intended. Teachers with a strong agenda will be able to bring up discredited arguments against the mainstream scientific understanding. And, should they ever do that in front of a student from a family with equally strong views, the result will inevitably be a lawsuit that will hold the local school district responsible.
Seems to me that the new approach isn't to outright mandate Creationist teaching (since the Creos have failed miserably and repeatedly both in court and in legislatures when trying that), but rather to make it possible for fundamentalist teachers to be protected if they teach Creationist "theory" on their own volition.

This sneaky new approach using "neutral language" won't ultimately hold up in court, I think, because a Creationist teacher who teaches religion-based pseudoscience is still acting under the aegis of, and as an agent of the State, which may not violate the First Amendment of the Constitution. Nor may the State permit its agents to do so.

Tennessee's basically saying that it's withdrawing its control and oversight from that part of science teaching, but this is a transparent ploy to allow many teachers to "legally" violate the Constitution.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/13/2012 08:12:13
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:40:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

After reading the NCSE website, I assume this map is only an indicator of how well climate change and evolution are taught, not the overall science curriculim or test scores in any state. Although I bet there is some corrolation.

I fear Texas is next. You can't teach faith as science.
You have a point. I think that NCSE has been so busy swatting down anti-science, they haven't had enough time to properly grade the overall quality of science education more generally in the various States. I can't particularly fault them for this, considering.

As the old saying goes, "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's sometimes hard to remember that your original plan was to drain the swamp." (That's not such a popular saying anymore, since it implies that destroying wetlands is a good thing.)

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/13/2012 07:42:38
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
847 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  00:20:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cool, my home state (West Virginia) got an F! We never seemed to cover that chapter in science classes at all, so creationism and evolution actually got equal time (zero).

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1259 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  07:45:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

It will still be unconstitutional. How many times can that ruling be made?


Do you think they really care? I've owned guppies with better memories than cretinists. They believe that they can just keep pounding away until it sticks. And as far as it being unconstitutional, we all know that the constitution only applies when they want it to, the rest of the time it's asswipe.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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