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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2012 : 21:00:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
My opinion, Mab, is don't hold your breath. lf Dawkins can forgive him, being that they are friends and appear together often, my advice is to let it go. Do the Gnu's have to be so freaking sensitive? Why not follow the lead of one of the founders of your movement, eh? |
Meant for me, I suspect.
I don't claim to speak for others, Kil. I think I can see a insult when one is given to me, and those like, me by Tyson. I'm left neither in tears, nor furious. I expect other atheists felt insulted, too, but I don't know how good they are at taking insults without replying in kind. As for me, I note his words were unfair and somewhat hurtful, but I wait, as I'm hopeful he'll give a "pardon my phrasing, this is what I meant to say" followup.
Is that attitude being "so freaking sensitive?" I doubt it. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/12/2012 21:06:21 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 23:36:37 [Permalink]
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I agree with Kil, we shouldn't be so sensitive. He just doesn't have a huge interest in the topic, and doesn't want to be one of the people constantly arguing the concept of god, and the subtleties of the words, when he could be discussing the science he'd much rather focus on.
He sloppily replaces atheist with atheists continually discussing religion, but it's semantics to some extent, as he's grouping nearly everyone who isn't a theist as agnostic. Sure, he's irresponsibly feeding into the stereotype of atheists as somehow arrogant or strident, but it's far from a reason to take a negative view of the man overall given all the great things he does, including things that support what we consider atheists to be, arguing against god of the gaps, intelligent design, etc. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 23:43:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I agree with Kil, we shouldn't be so sensitive. He just doesn't have a huge interest in the topic, and doesn't want to be one of the people constantly arguing the concept of god, and the subtleties of the words, when he could be discussing the science he'd much rather focus on. |
And I don't fault him for this. I've even suggested how he could have better expressed his idea.| He sloppily replaces atheist with atheists continually discussing religion, but it's semantics to some extent, as he's grouping nearly everyone who isn't a theist as agnostic. Sure, he's irresponsibly feeding into the stereotype of atheists as somehow arrogant or strident, but it's far from a reason to take a negative view of the man overall given all the great things he does, including things that support what we consider atheists to be, arguing against god of the gaps, intelligent design, etc. |
It can't hurt him and can only help him now to clarify his position as not being one that vilifies any, or at least, all atheists. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 01:12:18 [Permalink]
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By the way. The first time I saw Tyson was at TAM6. I met him at the reception. Upon meeting him he asked me where I was from and when I told him he grabbed my arm to use as an example of Apophis, headed our way.
Here is his whole TAM6 keynote talk, which is now online:
Dr Neil DeGrasse Tyson - The Amazing Meeting 6
His enthusiasm and love of science makes him the leading popularizer of science. He's our most effective spokesperson. Not as poetic is Sagan perhaps, but they aren't the same person. He has credited Sagan for laying the groundwork for scientists spending at least part of their time promoting science. Something that Sagan was criticized for by other scientists. Tyson is now carrying that torch. He's the man! As I said, there is no one I would rather hear speak. After being lucky enough to see him twice, that hasn't changed. He's a national treasure. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 02:00:06 [Permalink]
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| Tyson seems a hell of a nice guy generally, in addition to having an ability to make science presentations rivaling those of Carl Sagan. All the more reason I'd prefer he took back that little chip he placed on my shoulder. (And upon the shoulders of other atheists, who might or might not notice them there.) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 03:23:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Tyson seems a hell of a nice guy generally, in addition to having an ability to make science presentations rivaling those of Carl Sagan. All the more reason I'd prefer he took back that little chip he placed on my shoulder. (And upon the shoulders of other atheists, who might or might not notice them there.)
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He seemed to want what he said to be seen as something he put a great deal of thought into. He either meant it to be insulting, or he really didn't put much thought into it. Maybe it is just semantics. I don't want him lynched, I just think it would be nice if he noticed that some wish he would have put it differently. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 03:31:24 [Permalink]
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Lets try this from another direction. What he said is that "atheists I know who proudly wear the badge are active atheists. They are in your face atheists, and they want to change policies. They're having debates." I don't see him dissing them. He said he doesn't have the time or the interest to do any of that. So what's so wrong with that? Is it not true that the the Gnu's are active atheists? That they are in your face atheists? That they want to change policies? That they're having debates? He said in another talk that religion and science are not compatible. He constantly points out that religion is an impediment to science, and knowledge in general. So he's taking the science line, which is not unusual for an educator.
Why that should put a chip on anyones shoulder, I don't get. But maybe that's because while I understand the Gnu's, I'm not one either. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 04:52:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Lets try this from another direction. What he said is that "atheists I know who proudly wear the badge are active atheists. They are in your face atheists, and they want to change policies. They're having debates." I don't see him dissing them. He said he doesn't have the time or the interest to do any of that. So what's so wrong with that? Is it not true that the the Gnu's are active atheists? That they are in your face atheists? That they want to change policies? That they're having debates? He said in another talk that religion and science are not compatible. He constantly points out that religion is an impediment to science, and knowledge in general. So he's taking the science line, which is not unusual for an educator.
Why that should put a chip on anyones shoulder, I don't get. But maybe that's because while I understand the Gnu's, I'm not one either.
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Shermer weighs in. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 05:10:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Lets try this from another direction. What he said is that "atheists I know who proudly wear the badge are active atheists. They are in your face atheists, and they want to change policies. They're having debates." I don't see him dissing them. He said he doesn't have the time or the interest to do any of that. So what's so wrong with that? Is it not true that the the Gnu's are active atheists? That they are in your face atheists? That they want to change policies? That they're having debates? He said in another talk that religion and science are not compatible. He constantly points out that religion is an impediment to science, and knowledge in general. So he's taking the science line, which is not unusual for an educator.
Why that should put a chip on anyones shoulder, I don't get. But maybe that's because while I understand the Gnu's, I'm not one either.
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I think if that's all he said, that would be fine. The whole thing is at least a confusing mess, as we've described, and at worst, an insulting mess, which will probably only be resolved with his explanation, which we probably won't get, and which we probably won't hunt him down for. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:50:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Kil
Lets try this from another direction. What he said is that "atheists I know who proudly wear the badge are active atheists. They are in your face atheists, and they want to change policies. They're having debates." I don't see him dissing them. He said he doesn't have the time or the interest to do any of that. So what's so wrong with that? Is it not true that the the Gnu's are active atheists? That they are in your face atheists? That they want to change policies? That they're having debates? He said in another talk that religion and science are not compatible. He constantly points out that religion is an impediment to science, and knowledge in general. So he's taking the science line, which is not unusual for an educator.
Why that should put a chip on anyones shoulder, I don't get. But maybe that's because while I understand the Gnu's, I'm not one either.
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Shermer weighs in.
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Yeah, and I mainly agree with what Shermer wrote. But he did not at all address what I see as an attack upon atheists. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:57:13 [Permalink]
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| Looks like Deja Ja Vu all over again. This reminds me of an absurd circus event from about the same time last year. I'm recalling "Elevator Gate". What do you know? Just in time to build up steam for the next TAM in Vegas too. Just like last year only a month or two earlier. It appears it's just another case where a personality attempts to give a relatively personal message which is used justify being "outraged" by those feeling insulted. After looking into what Tyson said the only real transgression I can find is when he said this starting just after @ 2:15 ,,, "Atheists that I know, that proudly wear the badge, are Like active atheists (emphasis his) they are in your face. They want to change policy and they are having debates..." I find it hard to believe he doesn't know many atheist that aren't so acidic. It appears he's doing to atheists what he believes others do which is his basis for not wanting the label. Possibly proving his case. I really hope this is off the table of discussion by July, the next TAM. I think efforts need to be made to not let distractions about semantics take center stage. Internal "hissy fits" like these really are counter productive. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 04/13/2012 06:59:56 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 07:24:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Internal "hissy fits" like these really are counter productive.
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Calling a discussion about a prominent person's ill-considered statements a "hissy fit" is counter-productive, and will only turn the discussion into something more than it is. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 07:51:48 [Permalink]
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| We're going to have arguments. This one's being conducted thoughtfully by all sides, as far as I can see. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:48:17 [Permalink]
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Mooner:
Yeah, and I mainly agree with what Shermer wrote. But he did not at all address what I see as an attack upon atheists. |
What's funny is you saw an attack on atheists. I saw no such thing. Go figure. At worst I saw a little lumping. And he wasn't dissing the more agressive atheists. He said it's just not what he's into. My guess is that Shermer didn't see it as an attack either which is probably why he didn't bring it up.
Labels are a problem too. I'm agnostic/atheist. And I must spend so much time explaining the agnosticism part that it's very tempting to just drop it. It's way more misunderstood than "atheist" is. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 16:55:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Do the Gnu's have to be so freaking sensitive? |
That's a mighty broad brush you're wielding. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Neil de Grasse Tyson, Atheist or Agnostic
