|
|
|
On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2012 : 22:33:09 [Permalink]
|
| I predict Tyson will convert to Christianity within the next 10 years. |
 |
 |
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 03:02:05 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
He's making a mistake. But it's not a big one. He just doesn't give a crap and doesn't want to be bothered. I suggest you listen to his lectures and decide what side he's on.
Mooner:
Now he's slinging absurd and insulting lies indiscriminately. |
No. Actually it's a big assed meme that's been moving through the community recently and even I've been doing it because I think it's unconstitutional to have "In God We Trust" on the money. I can get you a lot more examples if you need them.
Clearly he's not an anti-theist. And if that's a crime, I'm a criminal too. At the end of the little interview he comes right out and says; "just keep it out of the science classroom." His focus is on science. And that's how he likes it.
This isn't some big betrayal though I agree that he's doing way too much lumping. It's true that he can be an atheist without being political about it.
And yeah. Agnostics have to put up with being called fence sitters. Most of us here know what it means and we also know that why we are both agnostic and atheist.
But technically, he can stop at agnostic if he chooses, because without evidence there is nothing to consider. He's not required to come to a conclusion. Like Sagan, he can just wave it away if he wants to.
|
I guess I never heard of a crossing-out-god meme. Again, though, unjustifiable lumping.
I have no problem with Tyson wanting to take a position, however absurd or untenable I think it may be in reality, that he's an agnostic, not an atheist. I even respect his motives, though I would hope never to share them. (And he was spot on with is "godspeed" comment.)
But there is no need to him throw stones on at people who choose to be actively anti-theist. I cannot imagine that such behavior helps attract serious people to science.
Note that we're no longer even discussing how Tyson should fix his misstatements, but rather how passionately he meant them.
If we are to compare Tyson with Sagan, note that, careful as Sagan was with handling theism, he did not insult atheists.
And, though I continue to support self-identification even when there are some questions of its accuracy, Tyson is pressing the limits when he acts as though atheism and agnosticism are almost opposites. That's not the way for him to avoid-the association with atheism that he seems to fear. It's somewhat analogous to a gay who stays firmly in the closet while mocking "those queers" among his straight neighbors. It's a denial of oneself, and Tyson should think of what he's doing to Tyson. Tyson, in reality, is both an atheist and an agnostic, but I won't try to stop him from calling himself either one, even exclusively. If he wants to appear muddle-headed or even intellectually timid, he can have at it.
If Tyson simply doesn't want to get distracted with active anti-theism, that's also his lookout. Those of us that judge that theism is one of the greatest evils in the world have our own reasons to be active in that struggle.
Gnu atheists don't try to enforce mandatory anti-theistic action by all freethinkers. They just do it themselves and encourage others who are of a mind to do so, too. Obviously, Tyson is not helping, and probably harming, an endeavor that I passionately support. Even so, I accept that he has that right!
I also have a right to call him on his unsupported attacks upon, apparently, most freethinkers. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/26/2012 05:54:14 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 03:03:53 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I predict Tyson will convert to Christianity within the next 10 years.
|
I predict that most predictions will continue to be horseshit. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/26/2012 03:21:53 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 03:06:32 [Permalink]
|
Tweet from Hemant Mehta #8207; @hemantmehta:
"Alright. just saw @neiltyson's cameo on the Daily Show. I take back everything I said about him. He still rules." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 06:02:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Tweet from Hemant Mehta #8207; @hemantmehta:
"Alright. just saw @neiltyson's cameo on the Daily Show. I take back everything I said about him. He still rules."
|
I wonder what Hermant said about Neil, and what does Neil rule? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 06:41:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Gorgo
Tweet from Hemant Mehta #8207; @hemantmehta:
"Alright. just saw @neiltyson's cameo on the Daily Show. I take back everything I said about him. He still rules."
|
I wonder what Hermant said about Neil, and what does Neil rule?
|
Well he was up for leadership in the Allied Athiest Alliance, but I guess thats out.
"Jon, the Earth is still spinning backwards in your opening credits" -NDT |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:30:41 [Permalink]
|
| Ah, I guess it must have been this video that Mehta was tweakering about. And it's now clear to me that what Tyson rules is space. Still, Mehta's too easy by half. Me, I'd only forgive Tyson if he also sent me some NASA patches and decals to sew and slap onto all my stuff. I can't be bought, but I can be rented or leased. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/26/2012 07:31:26 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:33:49 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well he was up for leadership in the Allied Athiest Alliance, but I guess thats out.
"Jon, the Earth is still spinning backwards in your opening credits" -NDT |
 He's just sayin'. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:36:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
"Jon, the Earth is still spinning backwards in your opening credits" -NDT
|
When I heard him say it the first time, I immediately thought of two counters:
"No, the camera recording it was flying around the Earth really fast, so it only looks like it's spinning backwards."
or
"No, it's actually the video of it we're playing backwards." |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/26/2012 09:49:41 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:55:31 [Permalink]
|
Mooner:
If we are to compare Tyson with Sagan, note that, careful as Sagan was with handling theism, he did not insult atheists. |
Well… Sagan was more eloquent in his delivery. You never felt that he was shooting from the hip. Often that’s how it feels when Tyson talks. You often see him work at finding a way to put what he wants to say. Sometimes you can almost see the wheels turning. And that’s a matter of personal style, and probably more likely to produce an unintended result now and then. His words seem to be way more off the cuff than Sagan’s were. I really doubt that even with his mistake his intention wasn’t to insult atheists. While both men share an ability to project their enthusiasm, Tyson often seems like a big ball of enthusiasm searching for the right words. Sagan was more measured and poetic and I think much less likely to ere in his choice of words.
Mooner:
And, though I continue to support self-identification even when there are some questions of its accuracy, Tyson is pressing the limits when he acts as though atheism and agnosticism are almost opposites. That's not the way for him to avoid-the association with atheism that he seems to fear. It's somewhat analogous to a gay who stays firmly in the closet while mocking "those queers" among his straight neighbors. It's a denial of oneself, and Tyson should think of what he's doing to Tyson. Tyson, in reality, is both an atheist and an agnostic, but I won't try to stop him from calling himself either one, even exclusively. If he wants to appear muddle-headed or even intellectually timid, he can have at it. |
I would argue that his self-identification is sufficient. As an agnostic, one is not required to come to a conclusion or even consider the premise when faced with absolutely no evidence. “Is there a god” can be waved away as a nonsensical question. Of course, the problem there is what Dave pointed out. Not everyone understands that agnosticism isn’t a middle ground but more of a rejection of a premise based on a lack of evidence required to even ask the question. Most of us employ another epistemology to arrive at a conclusion. But it’s not a requirement to do that to be intellectually consistent.
And given his broadsides against religion as it affects science, I don’t think he’s let us down. Your analogy that suggests he’s mocking atheists I think is more a problem with his delivery. I don’t think that’s really his intent. He said he just doesn’t care but he keeps getting called out into the boxing ring, largely against his wishes. He keeps saying that he just doesn’t have the time or the energy to make it one of his issues. He’s busy with science and science education. Again I’ll point out that he and Dawkins share many panels together and seem to enjoy each other’s company.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 08:42:04 [Permalink]
|
Kil you say a couple of times above that Tyson simply flubbed his words. I was of that opinion at the beginning of the thread, too, and I said that I actually expected he'd correct what he'd said. He never did so. Instead, he's now doubled down on "humanists."
If someone shoots and hits the wall behind me, I might holler at them, but still assume that they were simply unskilled with guns. If the next week, the same thing happens, but the shot comes closer to my head, I begin to think they likely meant to hit me. I start thinking of replying in kind.
Right now, after Tyson's second shot in freethinkers' (and my) general direction, I think the burden is fully on his shoulders to show he didn't mean to hit anyone. So far, he hasn't even claimed that he misspoke, but wasn't targeting other freethinkers. And this second shot seemed a bit more directed.
Yeah, the first time could have been accidental. Like when the second Tower was hit by an airliner, Tyson's second shot makes it look deliberate. And I don't think Tyson is that bad a speaker, talking off the cuff. Yeah, the wheels turn, but much more smoothly than, for instance, do mine! Also, Tyson has not even tried to clarify or retract his statements, or correct any "misimpressions" he might have given. Surely, he's not tone deaf to the controversy his remarks have caused. To me, he now seems be be quite deliberate and seems to be enjoying it. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/26/2012 08:48:46 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 09:01:16 [Permalink]
|
Mooner:
Kil you say a couple of times above that Tyson simply flubbed his words. |
No no. I think he's saying what he feels. But I'm suggesting that his intent isn't to attack atheists. You seem hell bound to read that into his words. I don't think he was dissing freethinkers, humanists or atheists. He keeps saying that he just doesn't have the energy or the motivation to take on that cause. Of course, as an agnostic, he is a freethinker.
I am a humanist. And I am not offended by his comment about covering up "In god we trust" on the money. I don't feel attacked. He just doesn't have the time or energy or even care enough to do that sort of thing. But he didn't call me wrong to do it. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 09:14:53 [Permalink]
|
| Let me add that he was given an award by a humanist organization. If he really wanted to distance himself from those with enough energy to mark over the offending words on our money, and he really didn't agree with the basic idea that humanists promote, he wouldn't have showed up for the award. Don't ya think? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 09:16:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
Mooner:
Kil you say a couple of times above that Tyson simply flubbed his words. |
No no. I think he's saying what he feels. But I'm suggesting that his intent isn't to attack atheists. You seem hell bound to read that into his words. I don't think he was dissing freethinkers, humanists or atheists. He keeps saying that he just doesn't have the energy or the motivation to take on that cause. Of course, as an agnostic, he is a freethinker.
I am a humanist. And I am not offended by his comment about covering up "In god we trust" on the money. I don't feel attacked. He just doesn't have the time or energy or even care enough to do that sort of thing. But he didn't call me wrong to do it.
|
I was rather surprised that you didn't see his second public go at it as an attack on freethinkers (of various sorts). I would just point out that if he doesn't have the energy to attack theism, he sure seems to have plenty for his fellow freethinkers.
And I'll retire from this discussion -- pending further comments by Tyson -- invoking the "Agree to Disagree" clause of Practical Skepticism. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 09:22:18 [Permalink]
|
He attacks religion in many of his lectures and interviews as an impediment to knowledge. That's why I suggested a few posts ago to listen to his lectures and decide what side he's on.
And yeah. We will have to agree to disagree. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Neil de Grasse Tyson, Atheist or Agnostic
