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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2012 :  17:56:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Yet if they were the be all and end all Jesus need not have been born...
I just figured out the answer to this objection: Jesus was (allegedly) required because no mere mortal can obey the 615 Commandments (Jesus added two) without fail, for two reasons: everyone sins, and some of the Commandments are self-contradictory. Jesus himself says that the only people who will make it into Heaven are those who are more righteous than the Pharisees.

But keep on ignoring Matthew 5:42, OFFC. I'm asking things of you, and you're failing to provide as Jesus insisted you must.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  06:06:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a gem of a comment from the Charlotte Observer Forum concerning NAACP stance on same sex marriage.
I'm surprised the NAACP wants to legalize sodomy. Why do they want to bring up their children in an atmosphere where little boys who are beginning to think about their sexuality are encouraged to consider other little boys. Shame on the parents who do this to children. The NAACP needs new leaders.
Eugene Dodge - Gastonia
Gastonia is west of Charlotte. Of course a little NW of Charlotte we have this from Catawba County.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  06:52:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eugene Dodge would probably be surprised to learn that consenual sodomy has been legal in all 50 states since 2003. Of course, he'd probably be shocked and horrified to learn that some straight, married couples sodomize each other on a regular basis.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  06:57:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the link Moakley supplied:

The May 13 sermon was critical of President Barack Obama’s announcement, days earlier, that he supports same-sex marriage. Worley told his congregation that he couldn’t vote for a “baby-killer and a homosexual lover.”

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/05/23/3259057/pastors-anti-gay-sermon-spurs.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy

Wouldn't such a statement be grounds for IRS to revoke the church's tax exemption?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  07:05:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Wouldn't such a statement be grounds for IRS to revoke the church's tax exemption?
Depends on whether or not the pastor explicitly told his congregation to not vote for Obama (or to vote for someone else). Saying that he can't vote for someone probably doesn't cross that line. But the IRS is notoriously lax in enforcing that particular law. The behavior needs to be really outrageous (like ejecting people from the church for not voting the right way) before they'll even start investigating, so far as I've heard.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  07:28:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Eugene Dodge would probably be surprised to learn that consenual sodomy has been legal in all 50 states since 2003. Of course, he'd probably be shocked and horrified to learn that some straight, married couples sodomize each other on a regular basis.
Checking today's forum Roger Kitzmiller of Waxhaw made those same points.
Less obviously false is the implication that sodomy is illegal in the state. A 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling invalidated sodomy laws, essentially making sodomy practiced between consenting adults in private legal in North Carolina. I suspect it is practiced with great frequency by single, married, gay and straight North Carolinians.
But I expect that Mr Dodge has very effective filter against disconfirming information.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:50:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse


Wouldn't such a statement be grounds for IRS to revoke the church's tax exemption?

That's really funny. Violating their own doctrines means nothing, how can violating the law be anything different?

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  12:16:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Jesus made it crystal clear that God expects you to follow the Mosaic laws. You should still be making sacrifices. And killing people who work on the Sabbath. And ritually cleaning yourself if you touch a woman on her period. Is it wise to ignore Jesus' own words? Again, Matthew 5:17-20 (and specifically to this discussion, Matthew 5:42). Matthew 8:4. Matthew 10:5,6. Matthew 15:3-6 and very much 24. Matthew 23:2,3. The number of references to OT verses within Matthew is also impressive.


Mathew 5:17 (NIV)
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

He is talking about the entire Old Testament not the rabbinical interpretations of them or just the commandments. Jesus does not abolish or add to the law but explains the moral meaning of the law in later verses such as anger is the same as murder in 5:22 etc. The Pharisees looked to obey the law outwardly without any change of heart, Jesus is saying that to obey the law your heart must also obey and that He has fulfilled all of it. The moral law by keeping it perfectly, the ceremonial law by being the embodiment of everything in which it pointed and judicial law by personifying Gods perfect justice.

Mathew 5:18 (NIV)
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus is affirming the authority of the OT as inspired and true. The NT does not abolish the OT but fulfills and further explains it. Jesus is what the entire OT is pointing to. The law has been fulfilled not abolished.

Mathew 5:19 (NIV)
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is teaching that disobedience to God’s law has consequences as far as some hierarchy in the kingdom of heaven. He teaches that Christians are to uphold Gods laws. Paul further says the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in Jesus and no longer is required by Christians (Col 2:16-17).

Mathew 5:20 (NIV)
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Obeying the law requires an inward conformity to the law not just outward appearances. This is where he explains there is an impossible barrier to any sort of works salvation. No one has fulfilled the law except Jesus. The bible is full of references to our sinful nature. Therefore the only perfect righteousness which is needed for salvation is when God imputes Jesus righteousness to us when we believe and repent.

Having said that in Jeremiah 31 God says at some future date He will change the covenant and it will be different than the one he gave to Israel the one that Israel could not keep. This was planned from before time 1 Peter 1:19-20, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

The book of Hebrews expounds on this. It explains there was a change in priesthood to Jesus as high priest Hebrews 5:1-10. Hebrews 7:12-17 explains that because there was a change in the priesthood there was also a change in the law. If this were not the case then Jesus himself would have broken the law by becoming our high priest. Hebrews 9:16-2 says that there was a change in sacrifices from a yearly sacrifice to a one time sacrifice in Jesus.

This change took place at the cross when Jesus was crucified Colossians 2:14. Romans 15:4 tells us the OT was written for our learning and to give us hope. Galatians 3:24-25 states that the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It shows us our sin and need of a savior. We are no longer under its authority as Christians today.

Christians interpret verses in relation to each other from the entire canon since we believe the entire Bible is inspired.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  16:51:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

We are no longer under its authority as Christians today. Christians interpret verses in relation to each other from the entire canon since we believe the entire Bible is inspired.
Tell that to all the Leviticus-citing homophobic Christians. Tell them that they're doing Christianity wrong. Please, explain it to the likes of Bill Donohue, Roy Moore and Fred Phelps.

I'm only treating the Bible as an authority for the sake of argument. I'm not the one who needs convincing that the ancient, violent, misogynist rules should be ignored. The day that the vast majority of Christians agrees with you about the authority of Mosaic law will be a great day, indeed. I doubt it will happen within my lifetime.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  19:13:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote




...or it could just be about cherry-picking what laws to believe in.
But then you'd have to be prepared to be called a f**ing hypocritical bigot.

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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/23/2012 19:18:54
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  06:10:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Tell that to all the Leviticus-citing homophobic Christians. Tell them that they're doing Christianity wrong. Please, explain it to the likes of Bill Donohue, Roy Moore and Fred Phelps.
There is not one truth on this planet that has not been misused for evil including christianity.

I'm only treating the Bible as an authority for the sake of argument. I'm not the one who needs convincing that the ancient, violent, misogynist rules should be ignored. The day that the vast majority of Christians agrees with you about the authority of Mosaic law will be a great day, indeed. I doubt it will happen within my lifetime.
I was not trying to convince you but only to try to correct you on your use of Matthew 5. I doubt it will happen as well because people are not good.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  06:16:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...or it could just be about cherry-picking what laws to believe in. But then you'd have to be prepared to be called a f**ing hypocritical bigot.
Do you support NAMBLA? If not then you are a f**ing bigot according to your post. We just draw our moral line in a different place. Is it intolerant to believe NAMBLA is wrong? But if it makes you feel better to disregard my beliefs by calling me names then I am fine with that.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  10:26:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...or it could just be about cherry-picking what laws to believe in. But then you'd have to be prepared to be called a f**ing hypocritical bigot.
Do you support NAMBLA? If not then you are a f**ing bigot according to your post. We just draw our moral line in a different place. Is it intolerant to believe NAMBLA is wrong? But if it makes you feel better to disregard my beliefs by calling me names then I am fine with that.

I was speaking in general terms about Christians deciding to quote one section of the law (read homosexual acts) and at the same time ignoring other parts of it (tattoos) as depicted in the photo I posted. It exposes the hypocrisy of the morons who use the bible to further a cause for which they have other motivations.

If the tattoo guy had written "I want to forbid homosexuality because it's icky", that wouldn't have been hypocritical. Perhaps still bigoted, but not hypocritical.

About NAMBLA: I don't live in USA so I've only heard about it in passing. Their mission seems to be to remove the age of consent, which is something I don't support. The law is there to protect children from being taken advantage of through undue use of influence. But that seems like subject in-and-of itself. If you start a thread in the Social Issues section, I will surely comment more on it.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  11:22:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...or it could just be about cherry-picking what laws to believe in. But then you'd have to be prepared to be called a f**ing hypocritical bigot.
Do you support NAMBLA? If not then you are a f**ing bigot according to your post. We just draw our moral line in a different place. Is it intolerant to believe NAMBLA is wrong? But if it makes you feel better to disregard my beliefs by calling me names then I am fine with that.
Throwing in NAMBLA is the sexual-issue equivalent and analogy of Godwin's Law, or Reductio ad Hitlerum. It's a rhetorical fallacy in this case, as: 1) nobody has advocated molesting little boys in this discussion, and 2) it's a contextually absurd "slippery slope" argument. Probably nobody here's personally insulted by the NAMBLA reference precisely since it's so wide of the mark, but it's a brazen logical/rhetorical fallacy, and sounds desperate, like the way some fundamentalists warn, "Next, they'll be marrying animals!"

You need better arguments.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  12:37:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I was speaking in general terms about Christians deciding to quote one section of the law (read homosexual acts) and at the same time ignoring other parts of it (tattoos) as depicted in the photo I posted. It exposes the hypocrisy of the morons who use the bible to further a cause for which they have other motivations.

If the tattoo guy had written "I want to forbid homosexuality because it's icky", that wouldn't have been hypocritical. Perhaps still bigoted, but not hypocritical.

Ok, I misunderstood, I can agree with you on this point.

After rereading my post I owe you an apology for my remarks.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
Edited by - Convinced on 05/24/2012 13:07:59
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