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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  20:44:29  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If someone has a sex change, male to female for example, should they be legally defined as male or female or transgender? Is it offensive to still refer to them as a "he"?

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  21:25:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

If someone has a sex change, male to female for example, should they be legally defined as male or female or transgender?
To which laws would it make a difference? In the US, equal-employment laws say that it's illegal to discriminate based on gender, regardless of what that gender is. So how a trans person would be classified is irrelevant to that law. Perhaps you had a particular law in mind?
Is it offensive to still refer to them as a "he"?
If she refers to herself as female, then yes it would be offensive.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  23:06:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

To which laws would it make a difference? In the US, equal-employment laws say that it's illegal to discriminate based on gender, regardless of what that gender is. So how a trans person would be classified is irrelevant to that law. Perhaps you had a particular law in mind?


I'm not a lawyer, but your sex as I understand it is a legal status for identification purposes. Your ID and passport need to state a gender, if you were to lie about this it would seem to be a legal issue. I don't know if that applies in America, but it does every other country I have been to.


Is it offensive to still refer to them as a "he"?
If she refers to herself as female, then yes it would be offensive.


But obviously how a persons defines themselves is not the be all and end all. I could define myself as a female, but looking nothing like one, it would be unfair to label people as offensive if they don't follow suit. So what other factors are there?

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2012 :  06:03:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by Dave W.

To which laws would it make a difference? In the US, equal-employment laws say that it's illegal to discriminate based on gender, regardless of what that gender is. So how a trans person would be classified is irrelevant to that law. Perhaps you had a particular law in mind?


I'm not a lawyer, but your sex as I understand it is a legal status for identification purposes. Your ID and passport need to state a gender, if you were to lie about this it would seem to be a legal issue. I don't know if that applies in America, but it does every other country I have been to.


Transgendered, as I recall, are people what have undergone gender reassignment surgery and are physically the opposite sex than when they started.

Are you sure you aren't referring to transvestisism?

I believe that the US laws indicate that you must

1) Have the correct plumbing for the sex defined

or

2) Have started the process legally to change your sex from one to the other including undergoing the psychological testing required

or

3) Have a court order declaring what gender is appropriate for the individual

Your mileage may vary with other countries.


Is it offensive to still refer to them as a "he"?
If she refers to herself as female, then yes it would be offensive.


But obviously how a persons defines themselves is not the be all and end all. I could define myself as a female, but looking nothing like one, it would be unfair to label people as offensive if they don't follow suit. So what other factors are there?


If the individual refers to themselves by the verbal titles of a specific gender, it would be rude to not use those terms when referring to them. If one persisted in calling the person by the titles of gender that the individual does not identify with after correction, then one is being an ass and is offensive.

I have seen a woman who I referred to as a man (body style and musculature was indicative of a male). Once corrected (politely, I might add), I referred to that person as a female. (using the pronouns her and she when referring to them instead of him and he)

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2012 :  09:41:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by Dave W.

Perhaps you had a particular law in mind?


I'm not a lawyer, but your sex as I understand it is a legal status for identification purposes. Your ID and passport need to state a gender, if you were to lie about this it would seem to be a legal issue.

Then the answer should be obvious.

A man-turned-woman transgender has no penis, but a vagina(?). To have the passport not reflect this doesn't seem "legal" to me. And logically, considering what you wrote above, you agree with me.
This transgender person needs to have a passport saying "female".


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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2012 :  09:42:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

But obviously how a persons defines themselves is not the be all and end all.
Rarely, I've had people behind me say, "excuse me, ma'am" (it's the hair) and then they apologized when I turned around.

Transgendered people aren't going to bite your head off if you make what must be a common mistake. But they're going to be offended if you keep making the mistake after you know what's what.

Hell, the same sort of social rules apply to regular names. I knew a woman named Jennifer who hated to be called Jennie. Since it's a common nickname, she'd be patient the first couple times a person used it and gently correct them, but if they continued, she'd write them off as assholes who either didn't care about her preferences or who were specifically trying to insult her.
I could define myself as a female, but looking nothing like one, it would be unfair to label people as offensive if they don't follow suit.
Why would it be unfair? Your friends would probably understand (or at least try to) why you've made that choice and respect it. Other reasonable people might think you're nuts but at least have the courtesy to address you as you wish to be addressed. Jerks aren't going to care what you think, and call you whatever the hell they feel like calling you, no matter what.

A guy applied for a job in my company years ago. Joe Bob Smith (not his real name) put "Joe Smith" at the top of his resume. One of our VPs called him back perhaps a week later, and asked for "Joe Smith." He replied, "There's nobody here by that name." After some confusion, it turned out that Joe Smith had decided - during that week - that he preferred to be known as Bob Smith, expected everyone else to read his mind, and got huffy when people called him Joe. That's some seriously unreasonable nuttiness right there (what's even crazier is that we hired him - he lasted two months), but your average transgendered person isn't going to do that.

I mean, I assume we're talking about you meeting a transgendered person who is in a situation or wearing clothing that is sexually ambiguous. I assume that if, when you meet a woman who became a man and he's dressed in a tux, has an obvious mustache and introduces himself as Hank, you're not going to lean over to a friend and stage-whisper, "wow, she's got a really strong handshake!" Same with a woman who used to be a man who is wearing an evening gown when you meet her. I'd bet that 95% of the time, going with whichever pronoun matches how they present to the world is going to be the right choice. And the other 5% of the time, they'll correct you without assuming the worst of you.

(Oh, some prefer to use the asexual singular "they" as their pronoun. There are more than two options.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2012 :  07:08:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just this year, two of my friends unexpectedly changed gender. No sex change operations, at least not yet. Funny thing that I had a crush on one of them years ago, and now he looks even cuter dressed and made up as a gal.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2012 :  16:32:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse


A man-turned-woman transgender has no penis, but a vagina(?).

I'll leave it to individuals here to find out for themselves but YES they construct a vagina and a bit more.

Yes, their penis no longer exists as it was and when completed I don't believe any one but a surgeon could tell.
This link covers the topic of Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS).

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 09/10/2012 16:33:21
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2012 :  07:24:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you SS, that was a really interesting read.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2012 :  09:39:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Thank you SS, that was a really interesting read.
Your welcome Dr. Mabuse. I thought so too.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1457 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2012 :  15:06:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting read indeed. I'll stick with "don't fix it if it ain't broke."



Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 09/11/2012 15:07:35
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2012 :  05:30:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

Interesting read indeed. I'll stick with "don't fix it if it ain't broke."






Gotta agree, im pretty much liberal on most issues, but my line stops at transgender. I got no problem with L's, B's, G's and transvestites, but the other side of T is too much for me.

I also suspect that many LGBTs feel the same and do not appreciate being lumped together with them.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2012 :  06:52:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Gotta agree, im pretty much liberal on most issues, but my line stops at transgender. I got no problem with L's, B's, G's and transvestites, but the other side of T is too much for me.

I also suspect that many LGBTs feel the same and do not appreciate being lumped together with them.
And some Ls and Gs don't appreciate being lumped together with the Bs, but the real question is: what makes you (and they) feel strongly enough about your distaste that it becomes a "problem" that needs to be opined about publicly? It's one thing to say that it's just not your cup of tea (taste is not a moral failure), it's quite another to suggest that the people you're talking about are a "problem" for which otherizing is a reasonable response.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2012 :  07:11:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Gotta agree, im pretty much liberal on most issues, but my line stops at transgender. I got no problem with L's, B's, G's and transvestites, but the other side of T is too much for me.

I also suspect that many LGBTs feel the same and do not appreciate being lumped together with them.
And some Ls and Gs don't appreciate being lumped together with the Bs, but the real question is: what makes you (and they) feel strongly enough about your distaste that it becomes a "problem" that needs to be opined about publicly? It's one thing to say that it's just not your cup of tea (taste is not a moral failure), it's quite another to suggest that the people you're talking about are a "problem" for which otherizing is a reasonable response.


Oh I'm sorry Dave, was I NOT supposed to opine my opinion in a public forum about the topic?

You want a reason? One of the things I take issue with is a man getting a sex change and using a womens locker room...and I have a "problem" with that, there you go.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2012 :  07:53:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
You want a reason? One of the things I take issue with is a man getting a sex change and using a womens locker room...and I have a "problem" with that, there you go.
I'm curious. Do you also have a problem with a lesbian sharing a womens locker room? Or a gay man sharing a mens locker room?

Transgender people are those who feel that they were born with the wrong parts. They are not transvestites. Many transvestites are perfectly happy with the parts they were born with and some aren't gay. (Eddie Izzard comes to mind.) Transgender is neither gay nor transvestite. (Not that you said they that they are.) But if someone feels female, and feels it so strongly that she really is female in everything but appearance, and so she has her gender surgically reassigned, how is that person not fully female, inside and out sans reproductive organs? What locker room should she use? As women, she can't use the mens locker room. But a gay man could, right? I seriously doubt that many women would have any objection to sharing a locker room with, well... Another woman. So what's the problem?

You don't have to answer that. But really, I don't get it.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2012 :  10:57:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

Interesting read indeed. I'll stick with "don't fix it if it ain't broke."
I can agree with that ThorGoLucky but I'm a firm believer of FIXING what is broke too. This is no different than fixing a cleft pallet in my view.

It's inevitable that there are people who don't thru lack of knowledge or are incapable from lack of capacity of ever understanding the differences between Heterosexuals, Gays, Bisexuals, Transvestites or Transsexuals without a true desire to understand them.


There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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