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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2012 : 18:42:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I believe scripture interprets scripture. |
And Doctor X was giving you scripture with which to interpret scripture. He quoted chapter and verse in which your god claimed that he had forced people to sacrifice their first-born children, thus defiling them. Your god stated, in no uncertain terms, that he bullied some poor mortals (Israelites, no less!) into doing something horrific, just to show off his power.
This isn't some bit of poetic metaphor, but instead recorded as if it were historical, with god reporting his activities to Ezekiel. Ezekiel 20 is almost entirely one long quote of what god said. Is there some other scripture through which you can interpret Ezekiel's flat statements attributed to god as something other than factual reporting? Was Ezekiel perhaps lying, deluded or drugged? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 06:49:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
I do not believe anything.
Best to know or not know.
--J.D.
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Can you clarify? What dos this answer mean? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 07:07:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Can you clarify? What dos this answer mean?
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It means exactly what it says.
You, however, have a number of questions pending.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 08:13:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Originally posted by Convinced
Can you clarify? What dos this answer mean?
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It means exactly what it says.
You, however, have a number of questions pending.
--J.D.
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I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by your answer. Will you please clarify for me?
Do you believe the bible is true or not? Explain what you think the bible is please. Gods word, mand word, true history, hogwash or have you not decided yet?
If you do not consider the bible to be inerrant as I do we will not agree on how to interpret the bible. I gave many verses that directly contradict the verses you quoted. You have not addressed them yet.
I do not agree with how you interpret those verses you quoted as saying gods commands child sacrifice as a worthy offering to him in light of the scriptures I gave that say child sacrifice is wrong.
What do you think of those verses that say it is wrong? Do you agree they say child sacrifice is wrong?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 08:16:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I believe scripture interprets scripture. |
And Doctor X was giving you scripture with which to interpret scripture. He quoted chapter and verse in which your god claimed that he had forced people to sacrifice their first-born children, thus defiling them. Your god stated, in no uncertain terms, that he bullied some poor mortals (Israelites, no less!) into doing something horrific, just to show off his power. |
I agree god orders horriffic things, just not child sacrifice as a worthy offering to him. I gave scripture that directly contradicts god wants child sacrifice, what do you think of those?
This isn't some bit of poetic metaphor, but instead recorded as if it were historical, with god reporting his activities to Ezekiel. Ezekiel 20 is almost entirely one long quote of what god said. Is there some other scripture through which you can interpret Ezekiel's flat statements attributed to god as something other than factual reporting? Was Ezekiel perhaps lying, deluded or drugged?
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I believe god said those things. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 09:23:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I agree god orders horriffic things, just not child sacrifice as a worthy offering to him. |
The passage Doctor X cited said that god ordered child sacrifice specifically as a horrible thing to do, and specifically to defile the sacrificers. I don't know where in this thread anyone claimed that god ordered it "as a worthy offering to him," and I just read through the thread again to make sure.
No, you stated that god would never have ordered the sacrifice of children, and in fact prohibits it. Yet in Ezekiel 20 we have god stating in no uncertain terms that he ordered the sacrifice of children.| I gave scripture that directly contradicts god wants child sacrifice, what do you think of those? |
I agree that god says he doesn't want people to sacrifice their children, but that doesn't negate the fact that he ordered people to do so, so that they would "defile" themselves. God stated that he gave that order to demonstrate his power. Your god is a pathetic bully.| I believe god said those things. |
Then you must believe that god ordered the Israelites to sacrifice their first-born, period. Whether he found the smell of burning child-flesh pleasing or not is a different question. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 09:28:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by your answer. Will you please clarify for me? |
He's saying that knowledge trumps faith. That's it's better to know something than to believe something. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 09:57:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I agree god orders horriffic things, just not child sacrifice as a worthy offering to him. |
The passage Doctor X cited said that god ordered child sacrifice specifically as a horrible thing to do, and specifically to defile the sacrificers. I don't know where in this thread anyone claimed that god ordered it "as a worthy offering to him," and I just read through the thread again to make sure. |
If that is what Doctor X means then I do agree with him. I must have read in to his post that he was saying god ordained it for worship. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 09:59:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Do you believe the bible is true or not? |
In what fashion? Is the Earth flat? Are plants older than the Sun, Moon, and stars? Do seas wander about, relocating themselves?
| Explain what you think the bible is please. |
Currently, it is a collection of individual texts, many of which are collections of texts themselves.
Which god? You have yet to answer this.
| If you do not consider the bible to be inerrant as I do. . . . |
So you believe the Earth is flat? That it sits, flat, on an ocean--literally within a "bubble" of water that a hard shell holds back from above, and in which the stars, Moon, and Sun reside to revolve around this flat disk? You believe the Earth was separated from the sky before the Sun, Moon, and stars existed? You believe plants existed before the Sun, Moon, and stars?
Methinks, if you do, you have some serious educational deficiencies. I would further suggest that these deficiencies prove willful given the vast amount of data to to contrary readily available.
| I gave many verses that directly contradict the verses you quoted. |
No, you did not.
| You have not addressed them yet. |
I did. Apparently you ignored that as well.
| I do not agree with how you interpret those verses. . . . |
No one cares.
You are free to write up a rebuttal and submit it to the peer-reviewed literature. You may claim that a Former President of the Society of Biblical Literature is "wrong." You may claim that his references--all peer reviewed--are wrong. You may claim that other references, all from scholars who have contributed original research on these subjects are "wrong."
I can claim Nicole Kidman is currently screaming my name.
All useless such claims without evidence to back them up. You have, thus far, provided none. Worse, you cited passages that were shown to support the conclusions whilst conveniently ignoring other questions such as which god of the biblical texts you follow and whether or not you seriously believe the Earth is flat and older than the Sun.
| What do you think of those verses that say it is wrong? Do you agree they say child sacrifice is wrong? |
Kindly read what I wrote. I rather dislike repeating myself. I have been informed it is a waste of my time, and there are those who suggest that should not happen.
Originally posted by Dave W.
I agree that god says he doesn't want people to sacrifice their children, but that doesn't negate the fact that he ordered people to do so, so that they would "defile" themselves. God stated that he gave that order to demonstrate his power. Your god is a pathetic bully. |
It comes from texts far--centuries--later than the earlier commandments. What is "extraordinary"--part of what Collins noted in his address quoted above--is such passages demonstrated that the practice continued in the name of YHWH even into relatively late periods.
--J.D.
[Edited to clarify a quote attribution.--Ed.] |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/29/2012 10:04:42 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 10:02:10 [Permalink]
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I will note further--since people are past posting--the earlier commandments are demands from YHWH for the practice of child sacrifices. Centuries and an exile later, you have attempts to explain/excuse/will away the tradition.
It would be like pointing to the current US Constitution and declaring there was never slavery in the United States since it is expressly forbidden in the current version. {Slaves still exist in the US! REVOLT! ANARCHY NOW!} Hush.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 10:02:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by your answer. Will you please clarify for me? |
He's saying that knowledge trumps faith. That's it's better to know something than to believe something.
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But that does not answer my question on what he thinks of the bible. It sounds like he doesn't know if it is true or not. I don't know I wish he would clarify. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 10:37:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you believe the bible is true or not? |
In what fashion? Is the Earth flat? Are plants older than the Sun, Moon, and stars? Do seas wander about, relocating themselves? |
Ok, I take that as an unwillingness to answer the question. I will move on.
| Explain what you think the bible is please. |
Currently, it is a collection of individual texts, many of which are collections of texts themselves. |
Inspired by god or a god of some sort? Yes/No?
Which god? You have yet to answer this. |
The god the bible describes.
So you believe the Earth is flat? That it sits, flat, on an ocean--literally within a "bubble" of water that a hard shell holds back from above, and in which the stars, Moon, and Sun reside to revolve around this flat disk? You believe the Earth was separated from the sky before the Sun, Moon, and stars existed? You believe plants existed before the Sun, Moon, and stars?
Methinks, if you do, you have some serious educational deficiencies. I would further suggest that these deficiencies prove willful given the vast amount of data to to contrary readily available. |
Why not comment on the full meaning of what I said? I noticed the "..."
| I gave many verses that directly contradict the verses you quoted. |
No, you did not. |
ok, why do they not contradict what you said?
| You are free to write up a rebuttal and submit it to the peer-reviewed literature. You may claim that a Former President of the Society of Biblical Literature is "wrong." You may claim that his references--all peer reviewed--are wrong. You may claim that other references, all from scholars who have contributed original research on these subjects are "wrong." |
Ok, that may take some time though.
| All useless such claims without evidence to back them up. You have, thus far, provided none. Worse, you cited passages that were shown to support the conclusions whilst conveniently ignoring other questions such as which god of the biblical texts you follow and whether or not you seriously believe the Earth is flat and older than the Sun. |
All I did was provide verses that were in contradiction to the bible verses you quoted. I believe the earth is round and the bible does not say how old the earth or sun is.
| Kindly read what I wrote. I rather dislike repeating myself. I have been informed it is a waste of my time, and there are those who suggest that should not happen. |
I am sorry for wasting your time. You must have better things to do than to have a conversation with an idiot like me. So why do you engage in conversation with me?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
| Edited by - Convinced on 09/29/2012 10:45:15 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 10:59:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
If that is what Doctor X means then I do agree with him. I must have read in to his post that he was saying god ordained it for worship. |
What you seem to be missing is that Doctor X is looking at the Bible as an incomplete and highly biased recording of what people believed about various gods long, long ago. If I'm reading him and the bits of analysis he's posted correctly, people really did, at one point in time, think that their god desired the sacrifice of their first-born, and only centuries later did some other people come up with this idea of god saying, "I didn't wanna do it, but I had to" as an excuse or rationalization for the earlier peoples' horrific behavior.
Doctor X is specifically saying that if you read the Bible as if it were written by (or inspired by) an unchanging deity, then you're reading it wrong, because you'll be forced to ignore the context of the beliefs of the diverse authors at the extremely diverse times of authorship. Scripture can only be interpreted solely by other scripture if and only if you assume that not one jot or tittle of the human authors' own understanding of the world and their religion made it onto the page, that instead they were merely taking god's dictation, letter-for-letter. But that denies "inspiration" and makes god directly responsible for every little mistake in the text. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 14:26:56 [Permalink]
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| ["Poof!"--Ed.] |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/29/2012 14:30:16 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 14:29:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Ok, I take that as an unwillingness to answer the question. I will move on. |
The only one unwilling to answer questions is you, son.
I have wasted my time answering questions, providing citations, which you have all purposefully ignored and mischaracterized.
Until you answer the questions put to you in response, I shall waste no further time with you. For example:
| The god the bible describes. |
And which god is that? You have been asked that a number of times yet do not respond.
Notice the individual's complete avoidance of the implications of his claim:
| His Humble MagNIfIcence: So you believe the Earth is flat? That it sits, flat, on an ocean--literally within a "bubble" of water that a hard shell holds back from above, and in which the stars, Moon, and Sun reside to revolve around this flat disk? You believe the Earth was separated from the sky before the Sun, Moon, and stars existed? You believe plants existed before the Sun, Moon, and stars? |
| Why not comment on the full meaning of what I said? |
That rather is the "full meaning" of what he wrote, My Children. Methinks he never read the texts and simply lacks knowledge as to what they actually say.
Note this howler:
| I believe the earth is round. . . . |
Which is directly contradicted by both the HB and NT. Expect him--after searching "Answers in Genesis" or some other such nonsense, to bleat Deutero-Isaiah. I will them prove forced to explain basic geometry: circles are flat and the relevant word not only refers to a flat circle, the translators of the LXX understood it as such.
| . . . and the bible does not say how old the earth or sun is. |
I mean, seriously, it is there in the beginning with the P Creation Myth. Comes right after the copyright page. . . .
| You must have better things to do than to have a conversation with an idiot like me. So why do you engage in conversation with me? |
Noblesse oblige
As stated previously, I correct misinformation and, sadly, lies. It is my . . . "job."
--J. "A River to My People!" D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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German Catholic 8% mandatory tithe
