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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2013 : 16:41:02
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Really, a Rabbi in a bag! Because wrapping yourself in plastic will totally protect you from what your omnipotent omniscient god says you can't do. Or from what your omnipotent omniscient god can't protect you from. Or something. I'm confused.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2013 : 19:42:39 [Permalink]
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I'm envious, in a way. These folks can make up their own rules and then pat themselves on the back for following them.
I mean, if someone else tried the bag thing - just because - I'm sure a sky marshal would be wondering from which direction the gas attack would be coming. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 06:01:53 [Permalink]
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Kind of looks like an over sized Easter basket with a hat.
Who could imagine that a theists would hold any belief that's so unfounded in reality while lacking any rational basis and be so credulous. It's so out of character, I hardly know what to think. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 06:49:10 [Permalink]
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| Loopholes! Loopholes everywhere! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 08:37:54 [Permalink]
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Haredi again. Off the charts orthodox. And a Kohen. I happen to be one of those too, because it's a lineage thing, so I was born to be one. I was born to be a "priest."
What gets me about some of the laws in Judaism isn't just that t hey are irrational. Modern interpretation has placed another layer of irrationality on them. This is a perfect example. Okay, so allowing for the original rule of not approaching a dead body, how is the plastic bag going to protect the Rabbi anymore than the skin of the plane will? This only applies to Kohen though. For regular orthodox or conservative Jews, and really all practicing Jews, the sabbath is the holiest day of the year. That's Friday through Saturday from sundown to sundown. And on the sabbath, a Jew is not supposed to do any work. So what do they do? They walk to Shul, no matter how far away it is, because driving is work. Can't take an elevator either. The list of things that force you to work harder while not working is long. And that's just where it begins.
Personally, I don't care. This kind of nonsense is fine with me because it doesn't hurt anybody. I just find it interesting. I find the logic interesting.
The Haredi , at least many of them, do not believe that Israel should exist because they believe that land can only be returned to the Jews by way of the messiah. And of course, like all Jews, they don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. So they aren't Zionists in any way. That can't be said for most Orthodox Jews or Jews in general. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 08:50:04 [Permalink]
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| Richard Feynman told the story of how a Jewish college in New York City in the 1950s hired a gentile to push the elevator buttons on the Sabbath. Feynman found it rather heartless, because whatever eternal consequences would have happened to the Jewish folks for working on the Sabbath would obviously whack the gentile's soul, no? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 08:58:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Richard Feynman told the story of how a Jewish college in New York City in the 1950s hired a gentile to push the elevator buttons on the Sabbath. Feynman found it rather heartless, because whatever eternal consequences would have happened to the Jewish folks for working on the Sabbath would obviously whack the gentile's soul, no?
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It might. On the other hand, they might also feel that the gentiles have their own rules. But yes. If you look at it this does seem to be particularly hypocritical of them. More so when you consider that one the the rationals against riding on an elevator is that it causes someone somewhere to work. Electric company workers for example. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 09:21:55 [Permalink]
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I should also point out that the Jewish concept of hell is almost non existant. That fire and brimstone stuff is Christian, not Jewish. Plus Judaism is not a non proselytizing religion. So they aren't busy judging others with the threat of hellfire, and the threat of hellfire is not a motivator for being Jewish.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 10:16:11 [Permalink]
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By the way. I belong to a Jewish group on facebook. I'm the only atheist, which gets pretty funny sometimes. It's for me a cultural thing and to learn about how Jews of different backgrounds and denominations think. One disturbing trend is how politically conservative the many of the Orthodox are becoming. Like all fundamentalists, they are also very judgey.
By far, though they are not particularly represented in this group, the majority of Jews both here and in Israel are progressives. Here they are strong supporters of secularism and are very active in causes that promote secularism. And relatively speaking, more than many other people of faith, they are also strong supporters of science and science education.
You can see that reflected in the number of Nobel Prizes in various sciences that have gone to Jews.
| Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 800 individuals, of whom at least 20% were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population. |
List of Jewish Nobel laureates
And I don't think Jews are born smarter or anything like that. It's just that as a culture, Jews have a high regard for education. It's a cultural thing. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 11:55:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
It might. On the other hand, they might also feel that the gentiles have their own rules. But yes. If you look at it this does seem to be particularly hypocritical of them. More so when you consider that one the the rationals against riding on an elevator is that it causes someone somewhere to work. Electric company workers for example. |
Feynman also said someone at that college asked him "is electricity fire?" He was trying to figure out if electricity use fell under the prohibition against using/making fire on the Sabbath.
But what, in a Jewish view, is the reason for following the rules? I knew already that there is no Jewish Hell, but what about Heaven? What's the point of following the rules if not to avoid punishment or reap some reward? Why be such sticklers for these rules that a kosher telephone had to be invented? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 13:15:21 [Permalink]
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Dave:
But what, in a Jewish view, is the reason for following the rules? I knew already that there is no Jewish Hell, but what about Heaven? What's the point of following the rules if not to avoid punishment or reap some reward? Why be such sticklers for these rules that a kosher telephone had to be invented? |
Oh boy, do I hate Arutz Shiva! It's like the Fox News for politically conservative Jews.
But yeah, good question. The Torah doesn't make clear whether there is a heaven. But there are rewards of a kind for being observant, whether it's here or beyond. It all comes down to Rabbinical interpretation.
I suggest you read all of this Rabbi's views on the subject. It's rather long. It opens this way :
Is there Life After Death?
Most religious people assume that there is more to life than just this world and that there is some form of existence beyond. Where does this idea come from? Maimonides in his Thirteen Principles does not specifically mention Life After Death but he does talk about Resurrection. Is Resurrection a synonym for After Life or are there two very different ideas ?
Death itself is a fascinating and sometimes a frightening issue. But the Torah treats it in a very relaxed way as though there is nothing remarkable in a natural process. The Torah implies that originally Adam and Eve were created to live for ever and it was only by making the mistake of disobeying God that they were 'sentenced' to die. 'On the day you eat from the tree, you will die. ' Of course this is ambiguous. It could mean that Adam and Eve would die specifically as a punishment for disobeying God as would later humans who transgressed specific moral instructions ( like Cain ) or biblical laws. It could also mean that as a punishment for the first primeval disobedience, all of humanity would suffer death just as women would suffer the pains of childbirth. Either way the fate of mankind is expressed 'You are dust and you will return to the dust. ' It sounds very final... |
Read on. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 13:36:48 [Permalink]
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There is also this, from wiki:
| According to aggadic passages in the Talmud, God judges who has followed His commandments and who does not and to what extent. Those who do not "pass the test" go to a purifying place (sometimes referred to as Gehinnom, i.e. Hell, but more analogous to the Christian Purgatory) to "learn their lesson". There is, however, for the most part, no eternal damnation. The vast majority of souls only go to that reforming place for a limited amount of time (less than one year). Certain categories are spoken of as having "no part in the world to come", but this appears to mean annihilation rather than an eternity of torment. |
Eternal damnation is not a Judaism thing. And as far as I can tell, the Christian version of this God, or how rewards are doled out in the afterlife, make him much more monstrous than the Jewish version of the same God. The irony is that all that bad shit that God did happened in the old testament, and those are still the books that the Jews follow, but have been somewhat tossed aside (where convenient) by Christians, because of Christs fulfillment of prophesy. And yet, it's the Christians version of a loving God who is casting people into eternal damnation. Like, forever and ever. The worst you get from the Jewish version is death. You cease to exist. Much better than eternal brimstone and fire, I'd say.
Heck. It's what I expect anyhow.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 15:56:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Eternal damnation is not a Judaism thing. And as far as I can tell, the Christian version of this God, or how rewards are doled out in the afterlife, make him much more monstrous than the Jewish version of the same God. The irony is that all that bad shit that God did happened in the old testament, and those are still the books that the Jews follow, but have been somewhat tossed aside (where convenient) by Christians, because of Christs fulfillment of prophesy. And yet, it's the Christians version of a loving God who is casting people into eternal damnation. Like, forever and ever. The worst you get from the Jewish version is death. You cease to exist. Much better than eternal brimstone and fire, I'd say.
Heck. It's what I expect anyhow.
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I got one question.
Sooo Killll!! If Jesus is not the messiah they are waiting for, why don't they still follow the O.T. laws today? Like any stoning(s) at all, in spite of what the law prescribes? What's Jews excuse for not following the law today, pre-messiah? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 17:24:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
I got one question.
Sooo Killll!! If Jesus is not the messiah they are waiting for, why don't they still follow the O.T. laws today? Like any stoning(s) at all, in spite of what the law prescribes? What's Jews excuse for not following the law today, pre-messiah?
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Jewish law is a matter of interpretation. Capital punishment, including stoning was never popular in Jewish culture. It's in the Torah (bible), but there are very few known instances of it occurring outside of the Torah. And allowing for the implementation of it was made so complicated (by rabbinic law) that it just doesn't happen. Essentially, long ago, the Jews outlawed capital punishment if not in theory, in practice. Here's a pretty good explanation:
The official teachings of Judaism approve the death penalty in principle but the standard of proof required for application of death penalty is extremely stringent, and in practice, it has been abolished by various Talmudic decisions, making the situations in which a death sentence could be passed effectively impossible and hypothetical. "Forty years before the destruction" of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, i.e. in 30 CE, the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment, making it a hypothetical upper limit on the severity of punishment, fitting in finality for God alone to use, not fallible humans.[27]
While allowing for the death penalty in some hypothetical circumstances, scholars of Judaism are broadly opposed to the death penalty as practiced in the modern world. The Jewish understanding of Biblical law is not based on a literal reading of the Bible, but rather through the lens of Judaism's oral law. These oral laws were first recorded around 200 CE in the Mishnah and later around 600 CE in the Babylonian Talmud. The laws make it clear that the death penalty was used only rarely. The Mishnah states:
A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says: a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death. Rabban Simeon ben Gamaliel says: they would have multiplied shedders of blood in Israel. (Mishnah, Makkot 1:10).
Rabbinic tradition describes a detailed system of checks and balances to prevent the execution of an innocent person. These rules are so restrictive as to effectively legislate the penalty out of existence. The law requires that:
There must have been two witnesses to the crime, and these must conform to a prescribed list of criteria. For example, females and close relatives of the criminal are precluded from being witnesses according to Biblical law, while full-time gamblers are precluded as a matter of Rabbinical law.
The witnesses must have verbally warned the person seconds before the act that they were liable for the death penalty
The person must then have verbally acknowledged that he or she was warned and that the warning would be disregarded, and then have gone ahead and committed the sin.
No individual was allowed to testify against him or herself.
The 12th-century Jewish legal scholar Maimonides famously stated that "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death."[28] Maimonides argued that executing a defendant on anything less than absolute certainty would lead to a slippery slope of decreasing burdens of proof, until we would be convicting merely "according to the judge's caprice." Maimonides was concerned about the need for the law to guard itself in public perceptions, to preserve its majesty and retain the people's respect.[29] |
Religion and capital punishment / Judaism
Also, most of the old testament laws are still followed today. The more orthodox you are, the more laws that are followed to the letter of the law. Having said that, there are several denominations of Judaism, from extremely orthodox to very reform. And they approach the laws as they see fit for their denomination.
What I find interesting is that except for some of the very orthodox Jews who are kind of judgey, all Jews are considered Jewish by most other Jews. That can't be said about Christian denominations and how they view each other. A conservative Jew might scoff at the more reform version as being too lax and not Jewish enough, but the people themselves are accepted as Jews.
I believe that has something to do with the diaspora of the Jews and the need to hang together during bad times, of which there were many.
Hell. Even I'm accepted as a Jew by most Jews and you just can't get any more reform than I am! But if a Jew accepts "Jesus into his heart" that's pretty much the cut off. You can't be a Christian and a Jew because the Jews are still waiting... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 18:50:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Feynman also said someone at that college asked him "is electricity fire?" He was trying to figure out if electricity use fell under the prohibition against using/making fire on the Sabbath. |
I heard one time that the reason was because coal was burned to produce the electricity, so they considered it the same as using fire. From what I've read, it's more complicated than that. Apparently disputes over the use of electricity on the sabbath are exceeding arcane and contentious. Just to give an idea: | Some uses of electricity are especially controversial in the state of Israel because of its Jewish majority population. The use of automated machines to milk cows on Shabbat, an activity that is prohibited if done by hand, is disputed because the farmer may derive economic benefit from the milk, although cows suffer if not milked regularly. |
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2013 : 21:53:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
The Haredi , at least many of them, do not believe that Israel should exist because they believe that land can only be returned to the Jews by way of the messiah. And of course, like all Jews, they don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. So they aren't Zionists in any way. That can't be said for most Orthodox Jews or Jews in general.
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I've heard (years ago) that some Haredi in Israel are anti-Israel to the point where they have even been known to launder money for Palestinian terrorist groups. Bizarre.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Rabbi in a bag! Get yer Rabbi in a bag here!
