Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Social Issues
 Shut Up and Listen
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  20:00:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back on May 18th, Melody Hensley (Executive Director of CFI-DC and primary organizer of WIS2) commented on Lindsay's blog-attack against Watson (at #40):
Half of the Slymepit have shown up to support these series of blogs. These are not our supporters or donors. They are harassers and sexists.

I’m completely embarrassed. I feel betrayed that that my allies are upset and the people that wish me ill will are cheering this on. I wish we could go back in time and delete this PR disaster.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  20:10:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, there's this bit from Lindsay's opening lecture:
One thing you may have noticed already is that I did not give you a formal welcome to Women in Secularism 2. Of course you are welcome here. We're very happy to have you with us, but this is something you know already, and, although I don’t want to appear ungracious, why take up time to state the obvious, because the reality is we have much work to do, and presumably you came here for substance not rhetoric.
Then there's this Tweet from Justin Vacula:
@RALindsay a class act - Asks me if I feel welcome, says "Officially CFI welcomes you." - #WIScfi

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  20:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember that Ron Lindsay signed the Civility Pledge back on April 2nd. That pledge was created by Dan Fincke and a couple other people. Now read Dan Fincke's post from May 22:
Now, Ron Lindsay was an egregious violator of civility principles by being such a disrespectful host and then poisoning the well against Rebecca Watson in his post replying to her counter post to his talk and to his first blog defense of it. And this is especially upsetting given that only this past spring he signed a civility pledge meant to set a standard for others in the community to follow. This pledge gave a ton of instruction to people engaged in emotionally upsetting fights, including to people who were on the receiving end of awful interpersonal abuse. I believe in the ideals of that pledge. I believe that even though it demanded people do difficult things that they are vital things that must be done if the movement is to have healthy debates about serious philosophical differences in the future.

And Ron Lindsay showed that he could not stick to the pledge the
first time that he felt like someone made an uncharitable reading of his words in a very heated, public dispute after he signed it. The first time! He is asking women, specifically Rebecca Watson, to be bigger than a torrent of abuse that includes rape threats, death threats, sexually degrading photoshops, a website devoted to monitoring their every misstep, etc. And he cannot handle civil criticism from that same woman that was not a fraction as abusive to him as what she has had to endure. And he showed this thin skin while being the host of a conference where she was a speaker and it was his obligation to respect the position that that role put him in as a host. This was an abuse of his position and an embarrassment...

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2013 :  18:29:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It has been interesting following all the interpersonal drama. I wish I had heard Rebecca Goldstein's talk because she talked about how people need to matter, to be noticed. I have noticed that the critics of freethought blogs are quite envious. they are saying why are those people being invited to speak at conferences. I wonder if Ron Lindsay's speech was in reaction to not being as significant at a conference about women. I have learned a lot about privilege through freethought blogs and skepchick. I realize I have a lot of privileges as a white woman in the US.
I do think that certain people such as MRA's are afraid of losing that privilege, of not being as significant in this world. that's my analysis but take it with a grain of salt because I don't know exactly what Ron Lindsay and others are thinking

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  13:06:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How to perform an apology, head-of-organization edition

So it seems that there have been a few problems with the newsletter put out by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) recently. Some boldly sexist talk from a couple of white doodz, who, when criticized, doubled-down and made things worse. John Scalzi, current president of the SFWA, showed everyone how leaders ought to act. First, by essentially saying that the buck stops with him, so it is entirely his problem and his place to offer apologies, and then this:
3. It is my belief that SFWA has, under my tenure as president and through the actions of the board as a whole, become an organization with a more diverse membership, and also more useful and helpful to that diverse membership. However, it is also my belief that public perception of the organization matters, not only to the membership that pays its dues, but to those who could become members (and thus strengthen the organization) and to the public who sees the membership comment about the organization in social media. All the positive work the organization does for writers and members means little when things like this blow up.

When they blow up, I believe that we need to respond in two ways. First, own up to and take responsibility for the event. I have done so here. Second, put into motion steps that show immediately and concretely that the organization is committed to not making the same mistakes again.
Compare and contrast that with the CFI Board's response to the Lindsay embarrassment: "we'll look into this in a month."

Speaking of John Scalzi, if you remember, Lindsay was asked to provide evidence in support of his allegation that men were "being silenced" by the shut-up-and-listen "trope." He claimed to have provided such evidence in this blog post. After seeing that what he quoted from PZ was in no way an attempt to silence any men anywhere, I didn't bother following either of the other two links in Lindsay's sentence,
Other examples of the “shut up and listen” trope are here and here.
The first "here" leads to a John Scalzi post titled (oddly enough), "Shut Up and Listen," which is an excellent read and ends like this:
There are lots of things I think I’m right about. But I’m less inclined as I go on to think I’m right about everything, and I’m more inclined as I go on to recognize that my perspective is not universal. This means that if I want to learn and to understand things, I will from time to time have to shut up and listen, especially on subjects where others have more experience than I. It’s not always easy, because as noted, expounding is what I’m good at, and I’m not exactly shy. I have to make myself make the effort. It’s worth it for myself, and for how it helps me to understand others.
So once again, it's just Lindsay refusing to listen past the "shut up" part. The emphasis, in all these pieces, is on the "listen" part, as an invitation to comprehension, something people who claim to value evidence and reason, like Lindsay, should embrace. But if you can't quiet down (or shut up) first, you'll never get to the listening part and so understanding will be unattainable.

Whether Lindsay cannot or will not grok this is something we can't know. Hopefully, he's got a friend or two whom he's willing to listen to who will educate him.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  13:50:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A letter from 13 speakers from the 2013 Women in Secularism conference to the CFI Board:
As speakers, writers, and thinkers, we support the work CFI does. We promote CFI’s programs to our own wider audiences. We provide our time and our skills to further CFI’s mission.

In return for doing all that for CFI’s Women in Secularism conference, we were insulted by CFI’s CEO and required to do more work to make CFI’s conference a success. As a parting gift, many of us face continuing unpleasant repercussions of the actions he took while we were aiding his organization. This is unacceptable.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  07:55:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Background and links on the SWFA thing:
...Mike Resnick and Barry Malzberg decided that the appropriate response to people criticizing their previous remarks as sexist is to throw a fucking shitfit about it. They call the complainers “liberal fascists.” They accuse people who call out sexism of demanding “censorship” and “suppression.” They label such criticism “thought control,” they dismiss their critics as stupid and cowardly, and they imply that people objecting to their statements is tantamount to pushing a freedom-silencing dystopia a la Stalin and Mao.

I am not making this up. I am not exaggerating.
Sounds familiar, don't it? The sexism within the skeptic/secular movements isn't any different from the sexism among SciFi writers, tech people, gamers or pretty much within any other group not already devoted to feminist ideals.

Shouldn't we - determined rationalists - be able to do better?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  08:54:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jason Thibeault: Strawprivilege
Today, as I write this, I have done a number of things that are expressions of my privilege. I used electricity, all day long. I’m writing on a laptop computer, as I often do well into the night. I did groceries, and I did not go hungry. I ate very well. I did some chores around the house. I took a hot bath. I breathed clean air. I drank clean water. I took my omeprazole on time, reminded by my smartphone. Hell, I walked from point A to point B and didn’t get shot at, not even once. All of these things are little luxuries, so commonplace in my life that I am not conscious of them most of the time. They are all expressions of privilege.

...

In sociology... the term privilege has remarkable descriptive power with regard to the power dynamics we experience, because the term is in fact, definitionally, one pole on those power dynamics (the opposite being “underprivilege”). So when someone says, for instance, “check your privilege”, they mean to check your blind spot. They mean that you should be aware that you may not be equipped to recognize the scope and depth of a problem because of the cognitive biases that keep you from seeing the problem to begin with. They are describing a failure of empathy, where you either compensate for it consciously, or you go on standing on someone’s foot while they cry out asking that you please move.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  13:23:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stephanie Zvan: On Lindsay's Radical Feminism
Atheists didn’t promote this post. Feminists didn’t promote this post. Men’s rights “activists” promoted this post.

So how the hell did it end up in the opening speech for Women in Secularism?

That is what’s bothering me now. How did a blog post known about by MRAs but not secular feminists end up in Lindsay’s speech?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  04:22:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robin Marie: GET OFF THE FENCE: Sexism in the atheist community.
...[A] lot of people sit around in the middle and talk about “reasonableness” — and it is to these people that this post is primarily directed. You have to stop this fence sitting. It is not principled, nor does it reflect reality. Such fence sitting denies what is clearly a substantial problem, and engages in the discussion as though atheist feminists are not being viciously attacked every day by members of the atheist community, and therefore in some sense, are “overreacting” — it denies that the level of overt sexism and hatred being spewed out at atheist feminists more than overwhelmingly illustrates the reality they are speaking to. And it denies that even the much more quiet, clueless contempt they receive at conferences supposedly organized for them does not also, in a more subtle but very significant way, also speak to this reality. This, in other words, is starting to get exhausting.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  04:50:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stephanie Zvan: When We Have Equity
We’ll know we have gender equity when interference with our work is scrutinized and minimized. People who want to see this movement go forward will get angry at the constant interruption of our work. The noise of continual attacks and constant pettiness will be decried as an attack on the work of the movement. The people who wage those attacks will lose credibility instead of gaining it. Those who libel us will be the problem of all who want this movement to succeed, not just the targets of libel.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1486 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  23:19:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
May it be taken the right way that feminism will be a quaint term eventually.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  04:19:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

May it be taken the right way that feminism will be a quaint term eventually.
Hmmm... Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, but we're still dealing with major racism problems.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  14:09:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, here is a much more comprehensive link-dump than mine. She even links to some of the asshats' writings.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1486 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  16:39:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

May it be taken the right way that feminism will be a quaint term eventually.
Hmmm... Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, but we're still dealing with major racism problems.


Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.47 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000