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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  11:19:02  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So American Atheists is being sued by a former employee for racial workplace harassment and her racially motivated termination. David Silverman (AA president) shreds much of the original report about this lawsuit.

Of course, it's up to the courts to decide who's right in this case (even then, it may not be the Truth&trade). But American Atheists may be one more organization that warriors for social justice think about long and hard before supporting.

(Unfortunately, every time I try to get to New Jersey's online civil suit system, it claims to be down for maintenance, so I can't see the details of AJ Johnson's allegations.)

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  17:15:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sikivu Hutchinson: Race, American Atheists and “The Movement”
American Atheists’ president David Silverman has vigorously denied Johnson’s charges–even producing a memo Johnson wrote urging her (redacted) email contacts to challenge my March 2012 article criticizing AA’s naked slave billboard. Although Johnson’s lawsuit will be adjudicated in court, her allegations should be taken seriously, especially within the context of a movement that has actively sought to discredit people of color who call out racism and has made little more than a token effort to engage people of color in positions of leadership.
Lots of links at the original.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  18:02:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Despite frequent tokenistic calls for “diversity” within the “movement”, there are virtually no people of color in executive management positions in any of the major secular/atheist/humanist organizations


Yes and hispanics are under-represented in basketball. Is that racism?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  18:23:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Yes and hispanics are under-represented in basketball. Is that racism?
Racist public policies have concentrated African Americans in dense urban areas where land is scarce and ensured they stay poor, basketball is generally the only sport they have access to as children that has major-league potential. So yes, the over-representation of African Americans in basketball (which means all other groups will be under-represented) is the result of racism.

Hutchinson, however, is talking about a much more direct problem.

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  05:44:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Yes and hispanics are under-represented in basketball. Is that racism?
Racist public policies have concentrated African Americans in dense urban areas where land is scarce and ensured they stay poor, basketball is generally the only sport they have access to as children that has major-league potential. So yes, the over-representation of African Americans in basketball (which means all other groups will be under-represented) is the result of racism.

Hutchinson, however, is talking about a much more direct problem.


How about the over-representaion in track events? Urban planning is a small part of the issue but hardly the whole picture. Part of it is a willing participation, the same reason that every white kid in the 50s wanted to play baseball, basketball has become a significant part of the african-american culture, if given the option to play any sport, a majority of african-american kids would still choose basketball.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  07:15:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
But American Atheists may be one more organization that warriors for social justice think about long and hard before supporting.

Anyone can file a lawsuit. It's way to early in the process to come to conclusions about where support should or shouldn't go. I'm not a member of AA because atheism isn't my primary cause. But I think it would be jumping the gun to draw even a tentative conclusion at this point. It would be wise to wait and see where this goes.

And that's my two cents worth.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  13:00:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Dave:
But American Atheists may be one more organization that warriors for social justice think about long and hard before supporting.

Anyone can file a lawsuit. It's way to early in the process to come to conclusions about where support should or shouldn't go. I'm not a member of AA because atheism isn't my primary cause. But I think it would be jumping the gun to draw even a tentative conclusion at this point. It would be wise to wait and see where this goes.

And that's my two cents worth.


My company hired a young fellow who turned out to be rather creepy and exceedingly unmotivated. After some complaints of him creeping out the ladies and a more specific complaint I had to fire him. His father comes along and lawsuits me with a generic racism accusation... needless to say his lawyer wasnt happy when we showed up at court and informed them that all of my longest tenured employees are black(along with 60% of the staff) and the woman who filed the complaint which led to his firing was too.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  14:16:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

But I think it would be jumping the gun to draw even a tentative conclusion at this point. It would be wise to wait and see where this goes.
Which is why I urged deep consideration, and didn't just write AA off.

There are already 'pitters out there complaining that Ron Lindsay and CFI got thrown under the bus instantly, while people are suggesting a wait-and-see attitude regarding David Silverman and AA. They somehow see this as hypocrisy, or at least inconsistency. But the difference, of course, is that the actions of Lindsay and the CFI board that people are upset about were all public and effectively broadcast, while whatever evidence AJ Johnson has to support her allegations won't really be known until the discovery portion of the lawsuit at the earliest. Any good skeptic (and the 'pitters like to consider themselves skeptics) would know that we can't come to even a tentative conclusion when we know with certainty that evidence exists that we haven't seen.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  14:26:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Urban planning is a small part of the issue but hardly the whole picture.
Agreed.

An interesting study might be to look at the grade-school socio-economic profiles of people playing college-level sports through scholarships in those same sports (people who got good enough at a sport as kids to get partially paid to play in college, in other words). My hypothesis would be confirmed if basketball players tend to come from city centers while runners and football players tend to come from suburban and rural areas. I doubt you'll find many soccer or lacrosse players who grew up in dense urban areas, either.

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  16:44:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

I doubt you'll find many soccer or lacrosse players who grew up in dense urban areas, either.

As a Brazilian this made me smile at how different our countries are, because that's exactly where our best players come from: dense urban (and extremely poor) slums. Our basketball and volleyball teams on the other hand come mostly from middle class because those are offered in private schools (and schools and universities have basketball/volleyball teams, but not soccer), whereas soccer is something kids do on the street with anything remotely resembling a ball.

Edit: that and soccer being most likely the only way chance these kids have to get even remotely close to success and riches.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 06/21/2013 16:45:58
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  19:36:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Siberia

Edit: that and soccer being most likely the only way chance these kids have to get even remotely close to success and riches.
I remember a poll of urban youth from a couple of years ago. Like teenagers. It was something close to half of the boys who thought they'd grow up to play in the NBA. All things being equal, however, each of them have about a one in 666,000 shot. Completely unrealistic expectations.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  20:54:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Soccer/Football is the most played and followed game in the world BECAUSE it's a game for the poor and working classes. All you need is any kind of ball to play it. "Goals" can be made just by putting down any 2 items. Even in the birthplace of football England, the vast majority of professional players come from urban working class backgrounds, almost none have any education past high school as they are usually recruited in their early teens and have no need of it. The sports for the more well-to-do were always cricket and rugby.

But besides that tangent, the more important reason why hispanics are underrepresented in basketball is because on average, they are shorter than blacks or caucasians. That gives them a genetic disadvantage in a sport where height is an advantage.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2013 :  04:25:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

But besides that tangent, the more important reason why hispanics are underrepresented in basketball is because on average, they are shorter than blacks or caucasians. That gives them a genetic disadvantage in a sport where height is an advantage.
By that logic, basketball ought to be dominated by people of Nordic descent.

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2013 :  11:54:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Siberia

Edit: that and soccer being most likely the only way chance these kids have to get even remotely close to success and riches.
I remember a poll of urban youth from a couple of years ago. Like teenagers. It was something close to half of the boys who thought they'd grow up to play in the NBA. All things being equal, however, each of them have about a one in 666,000 shot. Completely unrealistic expectations.

Indeed, but for some kid who has next to no chance of getting a well-paying job because public education is a (very sad and unfunny) joke, even being a middling soccer player will earn you a better life - except, likewise, most kids won't even get that.

Likewise for girls and being supermodels/actresses.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  05:06:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

But besides that tangent, the more important reason why hispanics are underrepresented in basketball is because on average, they are shorter than blacks or caucasians. That gives them a genetic disadvantage in a sport where height is an advantage.
By that logic, basketball ought to be dominated by people of Nordic descent.


White men can't jump

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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1458 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  19:37:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

But besides that tangent, the more important reason why hispanics are underrepresented in basketball is because on average, they are shorter than blacks or caucasians. That gives them a genetic disadvantage in a sport where height is an advantage.
By that logic, basketball ought to be dominated by people of Nordic descent.


White men can't jump

True, as proved by my personal anecdote.
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