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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 12/23/2013 : 07:15:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And you should be intolerant of anti-gay opinions in that case, because if a majority of voters want to police peoples' bedrooms, then the government will feel free to police peoples' very intimate and private sex lives. And if the government decides that that's okay, then the government will also feel free to police less private practices like your parenting, your entertainment choices, your reading material and your dietary choices. |
I agree with you here. I have never advocated making laws against homosexuality, but that does not mean I condone it either. I am even ok with removing god from official government activities and such.
Doesn't your Bible specifically enjoin you from judging other people, reserving that right specifically for God? Anti-gay sentiments are entirely about judging. Merely saying "homosexuality is a sin" is a judgment, given that what the Bible actually says requires interpretation to reach that conclusion.
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No. The Bible teaches us how to judge rightly (Jn 7:24). Telling people what the Bible says is not judgmental. How can someone have their sins forgiven if they don't know they are a sinner? Jesus did this all the time. Jesus taught against condemning others for the same things you do. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 08:00:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Its about our culture not tolerating an opinion other than pro gay sentiments. |
No, it's about our culture not tolerating bigoted anti-gay sentiments. Don't present a false dichotomy: a failure to voice anti-gay sentiments is not the same as voicing pro-gay sentiments. He could have not offered a public opinion, and nothing would have happened, despite his personal feelings on the matter. |
It seems you made my point about our culture not tolerating anti gay opinions. You seem to think that any opinion in opposition to homosexuality is bigoted. If so, then I think my statement on our culture not tolerating anything less than pro gay sentiments is correct.
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Why should "our culture" tolerate bigots? We don't tolerate racists either, to our culture's benefit. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 08:06:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
By now, those of us in the US have heard of the latest celebrity kerfuffle over the suspension of one of the starts of the Duck Dynasty.
(pauses to let the non-US members to quit laughing)
Social media has exploded with cries of violations of the star's free speech.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the protection of free speech in America has to do with the government suppressing free speech, not private companies.
For instance, say I was a widely recognized employee of Company X. I go out in the street and start railing against abortion or some other hot button issue. My company starts getting complaints about my conduct and fires me.
Has my free speech right been violated?
I say, no. Because it isn't the government. and freedom of speech does not mean freedom from repercussions for that speech.
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You saw the same thing when people started to get banned from the comment threads of FTB and other blogs dealing with social justice issues. A lot of cries of "their impeding my free speech!!!11oneoneone". It was as dumb in that instance as it is in this one.
So to answer your question, indeed a sizable portion of people does not seem to understand free speech. They specifically do not understand that your right to spout nonsense does not oblige other to give you a platform for that nonsense. I have an utter contempt for people who do not understand this. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 10:37:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I have never advocated making laws against homosexuality, but that does not mean I condone it either. |
Why should anyone else care whether you condone a behavior that doesn't affect you? Why do you and the Phil Robertsons of the world think that their opinions on other people's sex lives matters to anyone but themselves?| No. The Bible teaches us how to judge rightly (Jn 7:24). |
Jn 7:24 says to judge correctly, not how. It only says to avoid being superficial. That's like saying, "don't just look at the colors in the artwork; critique correctly!" It isn't helpful advice without a whole lot more training in art (or sin) appreciation.| Telling people what the Bible says is not judgmental. |
Since the Bible isn't crystal clear, it requires a judgment or three to decide what the Bible says. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 1,500 Christians sects in the US. Other churches have judged homosexuality to not be a sin. Whose judgments are correct?| How can someone have their sins forgiven if they don't know they are a sinner? |
You don't think God has the capability to forgive the ignorant?! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 21:08:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I have never advocated making laws against homosexuality, but that does not mean I condone it either. |
Why should anyone else care whether you condone a behavior that doesn't affect you? Why do you and the Phil Robertsons of the world think that their opinions on other people's sex lives matters to anyone but themselves? |
I don't. It is just my belief. Phil was asked a question, he answered it.
| Jn 7:24 says to judge correctly, not how. It only says to avoid being superficial. That's like saying, "don't just look at the colors in the artwork; critique correctly!" It isn't helpful advice without a whole lot more training in art (or sin) appreciation. |
If you read the entire Bible it will become clear.
| Since the Bible isn't crystal clear, it requires a judgment or three to decide what the Bible says. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 1,500 Christians sects in the US. Other churches have judged homosexuality to not be a sin. Whose judgments are correct? |
There are clear passages in the Bible from everything to salvation to homosexuality. Most Christians find in the bible what they believe rather than believing what the Bible says.
You don't think God has the capability to forgive the ignorant?!
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They Bible says no one is ignorant of their sin. Only through the Bible can one find out how to be saved. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2013 : 21:41:44 [Permalink]
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Convinced:
Most Christians find in the bible what they believe rather than believing what the Bible says. |
Show me a Christian who believes otherwise. How are you immune from your own biases? Or are you including yourself in the above quote? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2013 : 06:53:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I don't. It is just my belief. |
But "don't condone" isn't a synonym for "dislike." Saying you don't condone it means that if you were King of the World, you wouldn't allow it. That's a bit more than just a passive belief, and you're being less than honest (with yourself, at least) to downplay it as mere personal preference. I don't like most country/western music, but I absolutely condone it.| Phil was asked a question, he answered it. |
With insultingly stupid generalities that were also more than mere opinion. He didn't simply say, "I don't like it," he said it was illogical and a justification for eternal punishment.| Jn 7:24 says to judge correctly, not how. It only says to avoid being superficial. That's like saying, "don't just look at the colors in the artwork; critique correctly!" It isn't helpful advice without a whole lot more training in art (or sin) appreciation. |
If you read the entire Bible it will become clear. |
Your later statement, "Most Christians find in the bible what they believe rather than believing what the Bible says," puts the lie to that.| There are clear passages in the Bible from everything to salvation to homosexuality. |
What are the clear passages about homosexuality?| You don't think God has the capability to forgive the ignorant?! |
They Bible says no one is ignorant of their sin. |
Then your question, "How can someone have their sins forgiven if they don't know they are a sinner?" was based on something you knew to be false. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2013 : 22:08:16 [Permalink]
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Phil Robertson is the new Rosa Parks:Now remember, in that very GQ interview he not only said bigoted things about gay people, he also said that black people were happier back when they were poor and picking cotton before that terrible civil rights movement that Rosa Parks helped spark. This comparison is jaw-droppingly offensive. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2014 : 11:15:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Convinced:
Most Christians find in the bible what they believe rather than believing what the Bible says. |
Show me a Christian who believes otherwise. How are you immune from your own biases? Or are you including yourself in the above quote?
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No. I think it has to do with approach. I have had an opinion and looked to verify it in the Bible. However, I am aware that I do this and try my best to believe what it says and get other peoples commentary on the verses as well. My opinion is that most of American christianity is untethered from the Bible. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2014 : 12:05:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I don't. It is just my belief. |
But "don't condone" isn't a synonym for "dislike." Saying you don't condone it means that if you were King of the World, you wouldn't allow it. That's a bit more than just a passive belief, and you're being less than honest (with yourself, at least) to downplay it as mere personal preference. I don't like most country/western music, but I absolutely condone it. |
No. I am for personal liberty in our society. I don’t want government to ban same sex marriage or racist talk but I do advocate against those ideas. Not everything I personally think is wrong do I think should be banned from society by a government.
| Phil was asked a question, he answered it. |
With insultingly stupid generalities that were also more than mere opinion. He didn't simply say, "I don't like it," he said it was illogical and a justification for eternal punishment.| Jn 7:24 says to judge correctly, not how. It only says to avoid being superficial. That's like saying, "don't just look at the colors in the artwork; critique correctly!" It isn't helpful advice without a whole lot more training in art (or sin) appreciation. |
If you read the entire Bible it will become clear. |
Your later statement, "Most Christians find in the bible what they believe rather than believing what the Bible says," puts the lie to that. |
True. I simply mean that the Bible has a lot to say about sin so you can understand Jn 7:24 correctly.
| What are the clear passages about homosexuality? |
“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” (Lev 18:22) and “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (Ro 1:26-27)
Just to be clear these are included in larger passages about right sexual behavior and other sins. God does not see us as homosexuals or heterosexuals but people that commit homosexual or heterosexual sin.0 and this is how we Christians needs to see people.
| You don't think God has the capability to forgive the ignorant?! |
They Bible says no one is ignorant of their sin. |
Then your question, "How can someone have their sins forgiven if they don't know they are a sinner?" was based on something you knew to be false.
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Correct. That does not make sense. We know God exists and that we do wrong but we cannot know who God is or how to have those sins forgiven without someone telling them. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2014 : 12:14:08 [Permalink]
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| most people that watch the show know it is not real. The situations are obviously set up and probably scripted to some degree. Everyone knows they are rich. This is no breaking news. They are popular because the show is funny. No different that any other show. I am also very skeptical about the objectiveness of people that hate rich people for the sole reason that they are rich like this guy seems to. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2014 : 12:30:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Phil Robertson is the new Rosa Parks:Now remember, in that very GQ interview he not only said bigoted things about gay people, he also said that black people were happier back when they were poor and picking cotton before that terrible civil rights movement that Rosa Parks helped spark. This comparison is jaw-droppingly offensive.
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If i remember right he was talking about his expierience as a child. That was what he remembered thinking. He never said they were better off back then just that his observation was that they were happy. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2014 : 12:36:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
most people that watch the show know it is not real. The situations are obviously set up and probably scripted to some degree. Everyone knows they are rich. This is no breaking news. They are popular because the show is funny. No different that any other show. I am also very skeptical about the objectiveness of people that hate rich people for the sole reason that they are rich like this guy seems to.
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I think he was just pointing out that if you're espousing Christian views and then go ahead and pretend to be something that you are not, and make a lot of money doing it, you are a hypocrite. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Does no one understand free speech anymore?
