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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2014 :  14:43:34  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From now on, when entering into any sort of debate (translation: probably an on-line fight) with followers of the Abrahamic religions, I will ask two question:

1) Is your god omnipotent; all-powerful, able to do absolutely anything, there is nothing it cannot do?

2) Is your god omniscient; all-knowing, knows everything, past, present, and future?

I will demand the answer 'Yes' to both questions, otherwise any discourse is meaningless. Your god is either both those things, or it isn't a god, in the fashion followers claim it to be. Question 2 should get around ridiculous statements like "God is testing us", or "God is getting us to prove our faith", both of which are unnecessary if this god is truly omniscient.

I say Abrahamic religions because many other religions make it clear that the gods they believe in are neither of those things, they are more like powerful super-humans who think up things as they go. Pagans, animists, etc., are off the hook. But they would still bear the burden of proof for the existence of their gods, spirits, whatever.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590

ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1458 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2014 :  19:30:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reminds me of... "Epicurus's old questions are still unanswered: Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then whence evil?” --David Hume

By the way, I mostly won't bother with arguments about what God said when there is no reasonable evidence that God has said *anything*, like what Dave W. and Convinced are doing.


Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 01/07/2014 19:31:22
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2014 :  19:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

From now on, when entering into any sort of debate (translation: probably an on-line fight) with followers of the Abrahamic religions, I will ask two question:

1) Is your god omnipotent; all-powerful, able to do absolutely anything, there is nothing it cannot do?

2) Is your god omniscient; all-knowing, knows everything, past, present, and future?

I will demand the answer 'Yes' to both questions, otherwise any discourse is meaningless. Your god is either both those things, or it isn't a god, in the fashion followers claim it to be. Question 2 should get around ridiculous statements like "God is testing us", or "God is getting us to prove our faith", both of which are unnecessary if this god is truly omniscient.

I say Abrahamic religions because many other religions make it clear that the gods they believe in are neither of those things, they are more like powerful super-humans who think up things as they go. Pagans, animists, etc., are off the hook. But they would still bear the burden of proof for the existence of their gods, spirits, whatever.
I think a better resolution would be to stop taking other peoples delusional thinking so seriously. When there's no evidence presented, take a breath and lighten up. They have to base their beliefs on 'Faith'. That's why they say it's beyond testing, scientific scrutiny or can't produce any evidence for their beliefs in their God, Spirits, etc., all of them.
I can appreciate your frustration and eagerness to approach such discourse in a manner that might produce a different outcome into the new year but I don't see anything changing if you get your two yeses or not.

I've come to the conclusion, during my time here, that trying to convince a debating Theist that they are barking up the wrong tree is not going to happen in a particular thread. Like a real dog barking up the wrong tree, it is convinced there is something up that tree and they are not going to take any assurances that they are wrong. Never from Atheist who is obviously working for the devil or is the devil.

Take that barking dog, it's sure it heard it, it can almost see it up there right now, it see's something, it knows something is up that tree. Shake it, look behind every leaf and branch, finding nothing will prove nothing to that barking dog who 'just knows it'. There is a reason why that doesn't prove the dog is not correct and there is a reason certain people are like that dog. You might want to look into (reasearch) why humans think the way they do Senior Rat.

Theists are not going acknowledge the immorality that is in the the Bible or interpret what they could acknowledge as something that should disprove their whole delusion. They just tend to dismiss it and carry on. They either ignore blatant contradictions or start doing their apologetic soft shoe dancing about it, until they kick it under the rug. "Out of sight, out of mind", works for some. They have no choice, they can't prove their case and that is The Elephant in the room. Along with all those contradictions, all those demonstrable untruths, IMO. From reading posts on SFN, their reply on posts made that strike home is,,,,,, silence,,,,,Then when other posts are made they can reply to them and carry on, never look back.

Interestingly enough, Atheists who were once Theists did not become Atheists over one conversation or from a single forum discourse. It was a process, an ongoing search for truth about whether the God they believed in was in 'fact' justified or not. It's something that is revealed over time, while actively examining what one believes and why one believes it. No believer in Zeus or any other God will ever acknowledge their folly, until they care more that what they believe in is true, over what feels better.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2014 :  13:03:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Interestingly enough, Atheists who were once Theists did not become Atheists over one conversation or from a single forum discourse. It was a process, an ongoing search for truth about whether the God they believed in was in 'fact' justified or not. It's something that is revealed over time, while actively examining what one believes and why one believes it. No believer in Zeus or any other God will ever acknowledge their folly, until they care more that what they believe in is true, over what feels better.

Being one of the atheists sailingsoul describes above, I started out agnostic with a love for science. Then made a 10 year detour in the Pentecostal church before seeing the light of enlightenment again and coming full circle.

I don't know if sailingsoul analysis holds true for all theists and atheists, but I can attest as an ex-theist, in my case it does.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1886 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2014 :  16:10:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Interestingly enough, Atheists who were once Theists did not become Atheists over one conversation or from a single forum discourse. It was a process, an ongoing search for truth about whether the God they believed in was in 'fact' justified or not. It's something that is revealed over time, while actively examining what one believes and why one believes it. No believer in Zeus or any other God will ever acknowledge their folly, until they care more that what they believe in is true, over what feels better.
I wonder where this fellow will wind up in a year?

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  02:59:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will demand the answer 'Yes' to both questions, otherwise any discourse is meaningless. Your god is either both those things, or it isn't a god, in the fashion followers claim it to be.


But the person you are asking is a follower. Ergo it's a tautology that his claims about God are whatever he claims them to be.

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